Set Speed Condo Report: The Firehouse Condos
On the market since September, the Firehouse Condos, located at 31 St. Felix Street between Dekalb and Fulton in Fort Greene, are worth revisiting given the recent price reductions. All three residential loft units are about 1,100 square feet and are configured into two bedroom, two bath units. The penthouse unit has a huge rooftop deck while the middle unit has a back deck. Each unit also has a wall of windows facing Saint Felix St. The units seem to be co-brokered between Elliman and Harbor View Realty. These units, when first put on the market, were priced at $1.3MM, $1.1095MM and $995K, if memory serves correctly. They sat on the market and now the prices are at a more affordable $995K, $895K and $795K.
What sets these units apart from many other new conversions are the high-quality furnishings, such as Poggenpohl kitchen, Toto toilets, Franke sinks, Bosch washer/dryer and jacuzzi tubs with round windows facing the green backyard. It's hard to say why these have sat around for so long, especially since the nearby Greene Scene Condos have sold 2 of their 4 units at prices of $845K and $1.175K. It could be due to something in the offering plan which we're not privy to or the fact that the block these condos are located on is pretty grim and lacks the character of nearby South Portland or South Oxford.
31 St. Felix Street [Prudential Douglas Elliman] GMAP
Every Thursday, ltjbukem, whose own blog Set Speed scrutinizes the progress and quality of new developments in the area we know as Brownstone Brooklyn, pens a guest post about goings-on in the condo market with an emphasis on new projects.
47 Comments
By Sloper on December 1, 2005 9:58 AM
By bkborn on December 1, 2005 10:00 AM
What the heck is going on here. Those reductions are around 25%. And those are only the asking prices, and they are being advertised, and they are not obviously in contract.
I've got to think that these could go for 40% below the initial asking price.
Amazing.
By Sloper on December 1, 2005 10:06 AM
The, um, corrections actually make a lot of sense. Did anyone ever really think a condo on St. Felix, even one with Poggenpohl whatever, was worth $1.3m? It's a pretty laughable price. A 40 percent reduction sounds about right to me -- that would have them ranging from around $600k to $800k, which seems a lot more reasonable.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 10:16 AM
Could be a better block but a pretty good location otherwise. The wall of windows, outside space and high quality finish all sound pretty desirable to me!
The question is, is this the market 'correcting' or is something fundamentally wrong with these properties?
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 10:18 AM
Anyone who's in contract at the original asking price is going to have a major problem at closing. Banks will see the lower prices as the true appraisal price. Original buyers will have to make up the difference with additional downpayment. Ouch.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 10:21 AM
I think this is a market correction. It looks like there are buyers yet for this project. But there are buyers in contract at other pre-construction condos. The Beacon Tower in Dumbo just lowered their prices by a considerable amount (with only half in contract). Anon 10:18 is right. These price adjustments are realy going to sting anyone who bought in at a higher price come closing day...Unless, of course, the prices rebound by then.
By Sloper on December 1, 2005 10:21 AM
I didn't mean that there was anything wrong with St. Felix. But $995k for a two-bed/two-bath condo in Fort Greene seems outrageous... you could get a comparable apt in Manhattan for that much money. Probably not with brand-new fixtures, and maybe a little smaller and with less character, but close enough for many to walk to work instead of riding the subway for 25 minutes.
Some people, myself included, like Brooklyn better than Manhattan, but prices have always been higher in Manhattan... no reason why apts on St. Felix should buck the trend.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 10:22 AM
correction: "It looks like there are NO buyers yet for this project."
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 10:24 AM
Actually, some Brooklyn neighborhoods are outpricing some Manhattan neighborhoods. Brooklyn Heights and Dumbo, for instance, get a higher price per sq. ft. than Murray Hill. I'm sure Fort Greene will have no problem challenging Manhattan prices (eventually, if not already).
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 10:29 AM
I think they were grossly overpriced to start with, that's all. Who is going to pay over $1 million for a two bedroom condo on St. Felix Street, come on. People are correct to say that these are Manhattan prices. But St. Felix is not the choicest block. Not horrible, but not the best in Ft. Greene. You could buy a new two bedroom condo conversion in Chelsea for $1.2million about a year ago - puts this in perspective. The price was too high to start with.
By Sloper on December 1, 2005 10:30 AM
Yeah, that's because Murray Hill still has prostitutes on the streets at night. I lived nearby for awhile (on E19th Street) and when I'd walk uptown through Murray Hill it was pretty shocking; I've never understood that neighborhood, as it seems like it has a lot of unrealized potential.
Brooklyn Heights, though, has always been the exception to the Brooklyn-Manhattan price differential, due to the miniscule commute to Wall Street.
I think the Dumbo prices are unsustainable; very close to Manhattan, but limited basic services... my parents live there now and they're constantly complaining about having to go to the Heights every time they need to go to the pharmacy.
By ltjbukem on December 1, 2005 10:31 AM
sloper at 10:06am: $600-800K for these condos is way too low. there would be a fistfight to get at these condos for those prices.
i don't get it. from what the broker @ harbor view told me, the guy was involved in some quality projects before. when i saw the units, they looked to be on the up and up and of great quality.
but at the original $1mm+ prices, you have to still pay the transfer taxes on these new construction condos, which is probably $15K+ itself and then add on the mansion tax for $1mm+ properties and obviously no one is biting.
but they look good enough for some bids at these levels. but there don't seem to be any yet. maybe the mid-level wall streeters, once they get their bonuses will buy one of these units...
the media is playing up the top level bonus-earners on wall st, but we know that there is a trickle down effect, so those midlevels with $100-500K bonuses will have enough money for the downpayment on these..
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 10:41 AM
I think website is misleading - Same pics for each of these units. But only top floor can have the wall of windows.
Question I wonder about is - yes some expensive fixtures put in these units - but what isn't the markup because of these several times what the fixtures/cabinets really cost?
Interior pics looks very bland. I would guess that only top floor with all the windows makes up for that.
And look at the monthly taxes on these units!
By bkborn on December 1, 2005 10:49 AM
Maybe someone can help me understand how many bonus earners there are on wall street?
I keep hearing that they are going to swoop in and buy the tens of thousands of new NYC condos that have come on the market this year. It's not like the bankers are living in cold-water walk-ups in the Bronx currently. I'm sure many of them used last year's pretty good bonus to buy something nice already.
There just seems to be such an abundance at the high-end and I don't see an uptick in demand for condos driven by wall-streeters. They'll buy Ferarris instead.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 10:55 AM
I have to agree with bkborn...no Wall Streeters are swooping in to buy all the unsold real estate in NYC. They probably all own already and besides, the market is pretty up in the air -they have to know better than to buy at the top of a market. I think that's wishful thinking on the part of real estate agents. If I had a 500K bonus coming to me, I can think of lots of things I'd rather spend it on (if I spent it at all).
By HC on December 1, 2005 10:56 AM
And the walk-in closet-sized BRs might also be a drag. . .
By bkborn on December 1, 2005 11:03 AM
Another remark on bonuses.
These bonuses are not lottery winnings. There is some doubt about exactly how much the bous will be, but bankers know their profits and losses and can approximate their bonus. They're not living month-to-month, so if they want to buy an apartment they can start looking seriously before their bonus is announced officially.
If I had a steady stream of wall-streeters looking at my condo development, I wouldn't be reducing the price by 25%.
By ltjbukem on December 1, 2005 11:05 AM
bkborn, what's your condo? can you give us the url.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 11:22 AM
For all of us who can't fathom paying the outrageous prices on apartments these days (and I'm one of those making a salary that could buy me a castle in some parts of the country) lets hope that these price corrections are just the beginning.
By anon on December 1, 2005 11:24 AM
Those were bubble prices. The real estate bubble is bursting in other areas of the country like California, the D.C. area, and even Florida. I suppose there is some legitimacy to the "NYC is unique" argument as to why housing prices in NYC will not fall or even stop their rapid appreciation, but I'm a skeptic. I expect to see more of these 25%-plus price cuts.
(I have owned for years, so I hope I'm wrong and prices keep going up and up and up.)
By tinarina on December 1, 2005 11:34 AM
I saw these condos. The workmanship is stellar, but the layouts are not useable. There's a huge loftlike main room, but two tiny bedrooms. The master bath, with a sunken jacuzzi tub, is lovely, but it's off this postage size bedroom and it seems kind of silly.
Closet space is basically nonexistent, and there's no additional storage in the basement. Anyone who wanted one of these would have to spend AT LEAST another 30K to move some walls and add in storage--or lead a very minimalist existence.
The deck on the second floor abuts the A/C external venting, so I don't think it would be a very back-to-nature experience in the summer. And access to the deck is through the bedroom only.
I've looked at a fair amount of apartments lately and the dealbreaker is always bad layouts. I wish these developers whould do formica kitchens and baths and spend a little money on a good architect instead. The concept of a "classic six" is long gone in new construction, and it's depressing.
By ltjbukem on December 1, 2005 11:43 AM
tinarina, it's tough to do classic sixes in conversions, especially when the lot is a rectangular 25x100 or whatever...
agreed on the bland layout, but i would think some minimalist designer/musician/artist would love the loft layout..i don't think these apartments are meant for families...more like a single person or couple..
By Sloper on December 1, 2005 11:53 AM
How many minimalist designers/musician/artists have that kind of money? I thought the rationale for these prices was that Wall Streeters would use their bonuses to swoop in and keep the bubble afloat?
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 11:54 AM
After seeing the taxes here, I am beginning to wonder what the taxes are going to be on those Carlton condos people were commenting on yesterday .
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 12:00 PM
A crap layout changes everything. One of the reasons brownstones and brownstone co-ops are so endlessly appealing is the classic and liveable layout. At least when they aren't messed about with too much. I'm sure that's why these aren't selling. That AC vent on the deck sounds pretty bad too...
By nothingnew on December 1, 2005 12:13 PM
it seems to me that these places are just not a good value for the money, and even in NY people do actually care about that. Why would you pay a million to live in a minimalist box, where you and one friend with a six pack can hang out, when you can get the same thing cheaper somewhere else. Not to mention that felix street is kinda grim and its not really supported by access to neighborhood things like drycleaners, decent grocery stores, etc. Its just not a good deal and if the real estate bubble is a reality and not a myth, places like this will be the hardest hit in terms of loss of value. Even people who feel pressure to buy get that.
By bkborn on December 1, 2005 12:16 PM
I was speaking rhetorically about "my condo development." Although maybe it would be fun to create an imaginary one with renderings and floor plans and classic six layouts and CAD walkthroughs ... mmm walkthroughs.
By ltjbukem on December 1, 2005 12:17 PM
sloper, the musicians/artists can have their trust fund parents give them the down payment. hey, i'm not the seller. i'm just wondering why no one is buying, be it the midlevel wall streeter who likes to don his limited edition nikes on the weekends or the trust fund musician/artist/designer...
i'm not going to defend my reason for who might buy. it's merely a suggestion that i'm throwing out there. i've got no vested interested in this project.
By djr on December 1, 2005 12:27 PM
People just don't like to be holed in their nice condo all day on a "grim" street. They like to socialize with their friends and new neighbors. What is the main rule of real estate ? Don't buy the nicest house on a "grim" street ? You will only bring up the other home' values.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 12:39 PM
what is a classic six anyway? 2.5 beds and one bath? or what?
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 1:15 PM
What might help these places is if/when the high rise condo building goes up a block or two away on Fulton by BAM's Harvey Theatre. I've heard it will have commercial space in the bottom. It would be great if they put in a good quality grocery there a la Whole Foods.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 1:18 PM
I'm sorry but has anyone on this site actually been on St. Felix Street?? You have low income housing occupying most of the middle of the block...the street dead-ends at the hospital and basically ends directly at the emergency bay driveway so the Street is a chute down which Ambulances go to short cut to Flatbush...NEVER underestimate the impact of emergency vehicle traffic routes on your standard of living...ask anyone who lives around Union/Grand Army Plaza...
By the way, there are THREE buildings for sale on the block...all 3 families and all priced at the same price at ONE of these condos was priced at (pre price cut)...
It is extremely close, however, to shopping...the two beautiful bodegas at the end of the block provide everything you could need...
Prices were a joke...the person who said 600-800K is on the money at the low end...
BTW I live 3 blocks from St. Felix
By smatti on December 1, 2005 2:03 PM
I'm with tinrina on the problem being the layouts.
Long and narrow is a tough shape for 2 BR configurations. The “master” is 11’ x 9’6” and can’t be made bigger without cannibalizing the 2d BR (which is only 12’ x 7’6”) because of where the bathroom are. That limits the market for these as premium-priced condos. Add in that these are walk-ups in a small (no service, no doorman) building, and they are just not going to have much appeal to a ‘high end’ condo buyer. And the top floor unit has exclusive roof access that involves leaving the apartment and going up the common stairs (unless an interior stair is built, costing bucks and feet).
Beautiful finishes, though, with *some* character from the old firehouse. Just too many $$$$.
By Tinarina on December 1, 2005 4:02 PM
I'd forgotten about the walkup aspect--another serious flaw.
Anon, a classic six is the kind of prewar apt. that are coveted all over Manhattan and in the nicer borough buildings--generally a LR, DR, 2 BRs, 2 baths and a kitchen. These apartments also have some kind of foyer or entry, and nicely proportioned rooms (not necessarily big, but easy to furnish).
Like another poster said, a classic six may not be doable in a conversion. But the guiding design force in most of the new construction I've seen seems to be how the developer can do the plumbing stack most cheaply. The rest of the rooms flow from there. How elegant.
By DN on December 1, 2005 5:49 PM
Tinarina made an excellent point, I think, that developers don't put enough emphasis on layouts and the flow within apartments. It's not that hard to buy a place and install high-end kitchen appliances, but it's usually much harder and expensive to change an apartment's layout.
By anon on December 1, 2005 5:55 PM
A "classic six" has a living room, formal dining room, 2 bedrooms, a kitchen, and a maid's room. A "classic seven" has an additional bedroom. They usually have large foyers or entrance galleries. These were usually prewar (really pre-Great Depression) apartments intended for the upper middle class.
True prewar "luxury" apartments are usually 8 or more rooms, including a library, even more bedrooms, more servants' rooms, or specialized rooms like solariums. Rosario Candela, James Carpenter, and Emery Roth are often cited as the best architects of prewar luxury apartments.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 7:13 PM
All of the condos in the Greene Scene on Adelphi are in contract.
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 9:31 PM
What the hell does that have to do with anything??
By Anonymous on December 1, 2005 11:57 PM
Green Scene was part of brownstoner's original post. What does any of this conversation have to do with anything? Obviously somebody will buy these apartments eventually and they won't be people on this forum. Who cares?
By Anonymous on December 2, 2005 8:19 AM
I smell broker spy! Anon 11:57 PM, you should be ashamed of yourself!
By ltjbukem on December 2, 2005 8:38 AM
if all units in greene scene is in contract, i do agree that it is only a matter of time before the 4 at st felix are sold also. plus i hear the developer is very flexible on pricing. so make any offers!
By Anonymous on December 2, 2005 10:41 AM
funny, i'm not the broker representing the st. felix condos. in the post at 9:31pm. just have some info. about the other condos.
By Anonymous on December 2, 2005 10:43 AM
How does the Green Scene (What a horrible brand for a building) product or pricing have anything to do with the St. Felix project? How is it obvious someone will buy these apartments eventually? I'm sure someone was telling Jerry Minsky that about the green house condos, now that those jave been on the market for like a year and a half and still hasn't sold out.
By tommyill on December 2, 2005 12:15 PM
Some random thoughts on St. Felix St:
St. Felix has improved slowly over the last couple of years, but still can't compare with the streets west of it. One of the great things about the block is also one of its problems: much of the block is occupied by owners who have lived in the neighborhood for decades, and they have little incentive to improve their properties. There is also Section 8 housing on the block which provides for low and middle income residents. That said, a few of the few brownstones on the block have recently undergone renovation or are undergoing renovations and there seems to be a noticable improvement over the last year, and I think with the proximity to Dekalb transportation, it is an excellent block to invest in long term.
By AC on December 2, 2005 1:42 PM
I have to concur that even at 25% lower the prices are crazy. As a comparison, I live in a pre-war, nicely renovated building on E 95, half a block off of Central Park, in a space @ 1100 sq. feet. Yet I doubt my pad would even fetch 1 million. A similar apt in the building sold for $750k. There's more price chopping to be done here.
By AC on December 2, 2005 1:43 PM
I have to concur that even at 25% lower the prices are crazy. As a comparison, I live in a pre-war, nicely renovated building on E 95, half a block off of Central Park, in a space @ 1100 sq. feet. Yet I doubt my pad would even fetch 1 million. A similar apt in the building sold for $750k. There's more price chopping to be done here.
By AnonymousFelixer on December 2, 2005 4:50 PM
As a long-time St. Felix Street homeowner, I would like to agree with the earlier comment that, for the price of one of these condos, one could buy an entire building on the block (I'm not aware of any that are, but I bow to the superior knowledge of other posters who contend that is the case).
The block is a mixed bag of people of varying ages, ethnicities and incomes. It's not as pretty as nearby landmarked blocks, but it's mostly a quiet block and "grim" seems a harsh description.
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