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November 29, 2005

House of the Day: 280 Carlton Brownstone Condos

house We're going to boldly predict that 2006 will be the year of the brownstone condo. Even with the slight easing in prices over recent months, the only way for anyone to make a quick buck on a brownstone now is to turn it into condos--which will often fetch a good 20% more on a per square foot basis. This place at 280 Carlton is a good example. As far as we can tell, there are three units in building listed at a combined price of just over $2 million. As a single family, this probably would only fetch around, what, $1.7 million? It sold last July for $1.325 million and, if it's the house we're thinking of, it was in decent shape at the time. If the buyer put in another, say, $100 a foot, her cost would be a little under $1.7 million. That $300,000 spread is not a bad year's work for a small-time developer--though mortgage costs would have eaten up another $50,000 or so in the meantime. Do our guesstimates sound about right?
280 Carlton Avenue #1 [Corcoran] GMAP
280 Carlton Avenue #3 [Corcoran]
280 Carlton Avenue #4 [Corcoran]

Comments

I'm going to equally boldly predict that these condos are going to sit on the market for a long time.

Posted by: samandjoeshow at November 29, 2005 11:07 AM

I'm boldly predicting that you could get a very similar in Brooklyn Heights for that money.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 11:09 AM

Is one of the units a duplex? The listing shows two 750 square foot units (approximately 20x40 minus the hallways) and one 1100 square foot unit. If they were selling each floor as a unit at $650,000 then they would stand to gross a significant amount more. Did they do anything to the building, or just buy it and condo it? I'm watching this one closely as I have most of my future staked on a similar brownstone condo conversion a block away.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at November 29, 2005 11:09 AM

I just think $650,000 is a lot of money for 750 square feet. $735,00 for 1100 square feet doesn't sound nearly as bad.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at November 29, 2005 11:10 AM

I'm thinking they are keeping one unit (#2) for themselves

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 11:13 AM

The truth comes out. This is a legal four family, and I'm betting that the developer is selling three units for the combined $2.035m and keeping the last one for themself, or waiting to sell it later.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at November 29, 2005 11:15 AM

I don't see how they could get 4 apartments out of that. I imagine that #1 is a lower duplex (parlor and garden), #3 is the 3rd floor and #4 (which comes with roof rights) is the 4th floor. The prices are pretty high, but then again look who the broker is.

Posted by: clinton hillbilly at November 29, 2005 11:26 AM

How couldn't you get 4 apartments out of a 4 story bldg? From the floorplans, it looks like they are keeping the parlor floor which is what I'd do too. But for those prices, I'd rather be in Cobble Hill.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 11:35 AM

We'd assumed the bottom apt was a duplex--maybe there's an extension on the ground floor instead. Wow, if she's trying to get over $2 mil for just three floors that does seem like a serious stretch.

Posted by: Brownstoner at November 29, 2005 11:37 AM

Would that really sell for $1.7 as a full brownstone? That seems high, especially now that the market is dropping. I agree with Anon at 11:09 as well ... seems like they're priced for Brooklyn Heights. I like FG better than BH, but BH's proximity to Manhattan does justify a bit of a premium.

All in all, too pricy. I think this flipper/converter is going to get bit by the deflating bubble.

Posted by: Sloper at November 29, 2005 11:37 AM

I think Minsky hasn't heard of the 'softening' market yet. He probably thinks he is underpricing the property to set up a bidding war.

Snickering anonimously.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 11:51 AM

Bubblicious!

Posted by: anonymous at November 29, 2005 11:52 AM

the ground floor looks like a standard garden apt to me, with extension and garden. I just went to an open house for a similar place in Brooklyn Heights that was 100k less.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 11:56 AM

I know that two 850+/- sq. ft. apartments (2 bed/1 bath) in a coop brownstone (well maintained) on a nearby block sold for $600K +/- at the end of 2004/2005. Both had roof decks, prime location. These are condos, have lower maintenance/common charges and have outdoor space or roof rights. Depending on what the market will support now, I don't think the prices are too far off what has been sold in the past year or so. Then again, I do not know what the reno is like in these places and what they are like from a "feel" perspective as there are no photos of the interiors.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 11:59 AM

I wonder if the owner/developer established a substantial reserve fund for the bldg. I wouldn't buy a condo with no reserve fund. Things come up, as we brownstoner owners know, too frequently even after (especially after) a renovation.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 12:08 PM

I was the 11.59 am poster. One thing that could be a problem is marketing these during the holiday season. Not the best time. I would have waited until mid January when more people are looking again and/or have received bonuses.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 12:14 PM

I agree with Sam and Joe. $625k for a 750sf 2 br?

I am very curious how the condo conversion thing goes - a friend recently purchased a building with the same intentions. Seems like pretty bad timing - trying to get the conversion done while you sit and watch the value of the property decline. The flip (no pun intended) side is that she made so much freakin money on the house she sold to buy the new property (just over double her money in 4 years) that hopefully it won't kill her. Probably should've rented and sat on her loot for a while before putting money back into RE, though.

Posted by: Mr. Minerva at November 29, 2005 12:37 PM

A vacant condo conversion involves a lot of annoying paperwork, an architects plan, and $20k - $30k in attorneys expenses and filing fees. Then, you wait three to four months while the Attorney Generals office tells you how much you screwed up the paperwork. After that, you get separate tax lots for the units, and you are good to go. Don't even get me started on what's involved in an occupied conversion.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at November 29, 2005 1:10 PM

I knew people who were "asked to leave" from one of these apts when the sale went through in the Spring. I think they were paying about $1400, maybe a little less. The apt. was fully modernized, no period anything, really, as I remember. So the price seems a bit steep.

Posted by: anon at November 29, 2005 1:29 PM

Love the architecture in FG/CH but, brother, is it ever over-priced. And look at all those posts on the "Fort Greene/Clinton Border" item from folks dying for a store selling fresh produce after 8pm at night. Crazy to see these prices in a neighborhood that still lacks such basic services.

Posted by: Anon at November 29, 2005 1:38 PM

mr minerva -- what evidence do you have that there has been any decline in housing prices? the rate of increase has slowed, but there's no declining market anywhere close to new york city

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 2:30 PM

Anon at 2:30 - Not only is there no evidence that prices have gone down - it seems that sales are increasing AND prices have gone up!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/29/business/29cnd-econ.html?hp&ex=1133326800&en=0d78ac20ec7a2ef5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Keep on renting and crying in your beer minerva!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 2:47 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that the people that keep insisting that sales are increasing and prices are going up are the brokers that are trying to keep the market buoyant by any means necessary. If the market stays up, their commissions stay up, etc. The evidence I have of the decline in housing prices is the time it takes to sell a place, and how many price cuts it takes to get the deal done. Mostly, the propblem is people pricing properties at the lofty levels of earlier this year. Granted, a smart broker who prices a property at an attractive price versus the market will always always be able to sell the property. Its just that the attractive (reasonable?) price today is less than it was three months ago.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at November 29, 2005 3:20 PM

To the anonymous poster who said these are Brooklyn Heights prices--I'm looking in B.H. now and the closest comps to these are all co-ops with higher prices, and the maintenace 2-3x higher than these condos, to say nothing of the co-op boards. The only comparable condo in BH now that I've seen is a a few hundred square feet bigger with 3 bedrooms and $1.7M with maintenance over $1,000 a month.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 3:30 PM

I agree that prices are down from the irrational heights of last year, and that's a good thing. People are not getting the traffic on overpriced listings that they used to, so hopefully the realtors will get the message. I would call it a market correction vs. bubble bursting though. I'm sure there's still a very healthy market for well-priced properties.

Posted by: clinton hillbilly at November 29, 2005 3:47 PM

yep, they're mostly co-ops in BH, but here are a couple of listings that caught my eye in BH if you're in the market (I'm not, why oh why do I keep looking?)

http://www.elliman.com/Listing.aspx?ListingID=738619

http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=839450

and I also wonder about the reserve fund. I agree that the cc's are low, but what happens when the water main breaks or the roof needs repair. co-ops are not all bad, after all.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 4:06 PM

Hillbilly and Shahahan or whatever are clueless. If some idiot trys to sell a flea bag, 750 square foot 5th floor walk-up on 19th street and 3rd Avenue in Brooklyn for $7.5 million and it does not sell - that does not mean or prove that "prices have come down". It just means the seller is smoking crack. Shahabable - you prove your ignorance by thinking that brokers can keep this market afloat by posting New York Times artlicles on this blog. Its supply and damand that will keep this market afloat, not some loser broker.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 4:08 PM

there are condos on Adams and Bridge (dumbo) in this range.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 4:14 PM

In my search saga I haven't seen any decent two bedroom for less than $599 in a neighborhood I'd really want to live in, and these places all have what looks like big outdoor space. Will be curious to see them at the open house.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 4:28 PM

Clinton Hillbilly--thanks for posting those BH listings.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 4:51 PM

I'd love to take the credit, but they were posted by Anon 4:06.

Posted by: clinton hillbilly at November 29, 2005 5:12 PM

Anon @ 2:47, those are new home sales. Existing home sales, released yesterday (larger and mroe accurate sample) is much more relevant and it definitely showed a slowdown.

Posted by: erg at November 29, 2005 5:27 PM

I just tried to link over to the BH listings someone mentioned--could not find anything at all with Elliman and the Corcoran listing is $100,000 with a whopping $1000+ maintenance. Would love to see what you were seeing....makes FG look like a bargain!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 7:19 PM

I just tried to link over to the BH listings someone mentioned--could not find anything at all with Elliman and the Corcoran listing is $100,000 more than the most expensive here with a whopping $1000+ maintenance. Would love to see what you were seeing....makes FG look like a bargain!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 7:45 PM

this property is insanely overpriced. is it even that nice? that said all of us b'stone owners would love them to get these numbers. but dream on folks. i wish they had more pictures or something on their website.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 7:47 PM

Anonymous 04:08, the problem isn't when one person offers their piece of shit for $7.5 million when it is worth only $250,000. The problem is when everyone does. I think prices are coming down because when everyone is asking too much for their properties, no one will buy them. When no one is buying, prices come down. I never said brokers COULD keep the market afloat, just that they try to. Have you ever asked a broker how the market is and he said, "Really lousy, no one is buying. I think you should sit on your building for a few years and wait for a better time to sell". Yeah, that's what I thought.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at November 29, 2005 9:12 PM

Actually, yes brokers do do exactly that. Maybe not the brokers you deal with, but my suspicion is that you don't really deal with brokers too often. Your probably very new to the real-estate game and will become as much of a myth as all the 20 year old brokers at Corcoran. Get out of the Matrix Mr. Andersen.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 29, 2005 10:20 PM

I deal with brokers only when I'm buying or selling a property, as anyone else does. Everyone would prefer to sell properties on their own and save the commission, but I've gotten buyers from brokers that I couldn't get on my own. I'm not so new to the game that I haven't heard brokers lying blatantly about the market. P.S. My name is not Neo.

Posted by: Shahn Andersen at November 30, 2005 1:03 AM

I going to boldly predict that.

BTW: did Jerry sell Brownstowner his abode?

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 8:12 AM

why do people hate on jerry minsky? he's a pioneer in the ft greene neighborhood who's been around for years and has helped make the neighborhood into a great place to buy a house, rear kids and has helped increase everyone's property value.

Posted by: ltjbukem at November 30, 2005 8:28 AM

Just because a broker says the housing market is still strong does not prove that it is not.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 9:16 AM

One can get a beautiful house in Crown Heights for a few bucks more (look on Corcoran's site, there is one going for $799K and it's 2,880 sq. feet!). Don't know why anyone would spend this much, even though FG is very nice. Please don't start a thread about how bad Crown Heights is, I'm just making an observation!!!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 9:47 AM

Yes, one can get a house in Crown Heights for $799. One can also get a similar house in Manhattan for $7M.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 9:54 AM

While the Brooklyn Heights co-op someone posted here does have a maint of a grand, I'll betcha that includes tax and heat and water and someone to clean the fireplaces annually and check the furnace and maybe even some for a reserve fund. I don't see how this condo thinks it can run on a grand a month for the whole brownstone. Unless of course, it doesn't include taxes and heat and water and....

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 10:40 AM

You'd have to get a copy of the financials and monthly carrying costs. $850 (total common charges for the 3 apartments) plus another 300 or so for the owner's place would likely cover the normal monthly bills (heat, hot water, common electric, building/boiler insurance, prop taxes). The issue would be the extra stuff- random repairs and maintenance. It is a question of how large the reserve fund is and whether that fund will need to be augmented occaisionally by an assessment if there is a large repair to be done.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 11:02 AM

I am on the board of our small, 4-unit brownstone co-op -- well, we all are. Wish that our annual expenses were 12k. Wish that is was twice that!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 11:10 AM

Um, it's a condo so the unit owners would be individually responsible for their own property taxes. Plus, the gas might be seperately metered for each unit. Is this three or four units? If it is three everyone has to serve their time on the board. You better like your neighbors!

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 11:11 AM

Um, he was pointing out that the thousand dollar maint in the co-op probably covers a lot more than the $350 cc in the condo is all.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 11:20 AM

Looks like some don't know the difference b/t a condo and a co-op. Co-op's maintenance charges are invariably higher largely because that money goes to cover the mortgage or lease on the property beneath the building, while condos don't have that mortage or lease set-up to deal with.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 12:29 PM

Oh my, lots of bickering. Seems like this is a sensitive subject.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 5:31 PM

this is sad. is jerry minsky actually posting about himself on here? nobody else would dare ask why everybody hates jerry. if this is you posting jerry please get help.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 30, 2005 11:40 PM

Seriously, please get help. I'm sure Fort Greene residents are really thanking Jerry Minsky on his input into the facade of the vomit greene house condos.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 1, 2005 12:12 AM

I think many of you are just talking...... softening the market dropping...... do you know that house at 128 clinton listed by aguayo and hubener that you all sayed tons of things about it, sold at 2.2M!

Posted by: Anonymous at December 1, 2005 10:55 AM

um, no, this is not jerry posting about himself. it's the set speed blogger himself. anyhow, believe it or not, some ppl do like the greene house condos, green facade or not. i wish i had the monty to buy a unit there. plus all condo owners are probably happy that they now have comps for $800+/sq ft.

Posted by: ltjbukem at December 1, 2005 11:20 AM

Set speed blogger, i'm glad to know you actually appreciate that monstrosity. Now i don't have to bother reading your postings on this website. Sadly it makes me wonder what brownstoner sees in you though. How can he actually give up space on his website to a self-proclaimed critic who appreciates the horror that is the greenehouse? It makes absolutely no sense in terms of quality of real estate on the market, quality of housing in and around fort greene, architectural context, prices, anything. So brownstoner if i were you dude i'd start getting out of your cushy Wall Street deskjob a bit more and checking out some real estate yourself before you hand over the reins to one so unqualified as set speed.

Posted by: Anonymous at December 2, 2005 10:21 PM

he gives me space on his blog for the same reason he allows you to comment- he is looking for wide-ranging views. not only brownstone lovers, but also condo lovers, be it good or bad. discourse is what it's all about, man.

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November 29, 2005

House of the Day: 280 Carlton Brownstone Condos

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