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November 18, 2005
Front Page Forum: Clanging Radiators
We're a little groggy this morning because the entire family was up half the night enduring the incredibly loud banging sounds emanating from our radiators. Literally, whenever the heat kicks in and the radiators are heating back up, it sounds like someone is hitting the radiators with a tire iron five or six times. Our GC hasn't been able to fix it so we're thinking it's time to call in an expert. Anyone got a recommendation?
Comments
As someone who has lived, and still lives in old homes, my advice is to buy earplugs.
Posted by: D at November 18, 2005 9:57 AM
Had the same problem this morning in our 1920's townhouse in Forest Hills. (I know, not a Brooklyn Brownstone!) Also discoverd a slight leak from one of the radiators doing damage to the wood floor. In need of same advise/help.
Posted by: GLF at November 18, 2005 10:00 AM
A good plumber can usually fix this problem. Don't despair I suspect it is an easy and inexpensive fix.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2005 10:04 AM
This is a very common problem and typically has to do with the condensed water going back to the boiler fighting the steam coming from the boiler.
It may be that some of the pipes are not pitched correctly allowing the condensate to accumulate. This can happen over time with settling but may have been exacerbated by the renovation work you had done.
Call a plumber that specializes in heating systems and they should be able to help you out. It may be as simple as proping up one end of a radiator or two.
Posted by: Ben at November 18, 2005 10:05 AM
I have the same problem, but the pipes only knock if the thermostat is set above 65. (This works okay for me -- keep it at 64 when sleeping under blankets; let it knock like crazy in the day). You might want to play around with your thermostat to see if there's a turning point. Or you could get a plumber to fix it.
Posted by: Sloper at November 18, 2005 10:14 AM
buy this book: "We Got Steam Heat, A homeowners Guide to Peaceful Coexistence" by Dan Holohan. he is the god of steam heat. also check this (i think it's his website), www.heatinghelp.com
in steam heat everything is important, including the pitch of the pipes and whether or not certain pipes are insulated. if you changed any of the pipe locations, tore off insulation (even added insulation) and/ or moved around the radiators then that is why you have your problems. the noise is from drops of water made from waves inside the pipes which are then propelled at high speed towards the first right angle which they hit and make a noise (this happens when pipes are not pitched properly in single pipe systems). another way for the noise to happen is when the waves actually become so big that they crest into the top of the pipe making a bubble (two waves with quickly condensing steam in the middle) which becomes a vaccum which results in a sudden bubble of air that implodes. bottom line is that water droplets are making these loud noises in your steam system.
anyway, this guy Dan can be called for consultation i think and he is the boss when it comes to steam heat. also try this phone number: 800-853-8882
Posted by: Anonymous at November 18, 2005 10:15 AM
when I had this problem, changing the valves was all it took...it's the first (very inexpensive) step.
there's more information in a recent Forum posting...
Posted by: LG at November 18, 2005 10:27 AM
a follow up on my last post about Dan Holohan. he was a consultant for the city in the 80's when they discovered that steam heat was the best way to heat all the new projects developments in the city so you know he's got to be good. there is a link on his site to help you find heating professionals in our area but i think it would be worth a call to him. i read his book and then later called one company and they were a pain in the butt, plus i knew almost more than the guys who came, i just didn't have hands on experience.
Posted by: Tony T at November 18, 2005 10:28 AM
Radiator noise is absolutely avoidable. The trick is simply to pitch and vent the radiators and pipes properly. All of these reco's for Dan Holohan are correct. Buy the book. If you have the time, you can do most of the work yourself- pitching and venting Rads that is, Piping issues and Boiler issues belong to the pros. But you need to find somebody that knows Steam systems. We have had good experience with Gateway Plumbing and Heating. The first few months of last winter in our new home were filled with bangs and hisses. After reading the book and doing a little independant research, my system is almost totally quiet. Good luck.
Posted by: pk at November 18, 2005 10:34 AM
Keyspan can actually be very helpful. You may want to think about initiating a service contract with them.
Posted by: Chris Blake at November 18, 2005 11:15 AM
We just had John (aka Master Pvmber) from Gateway Plumbing over to look at our hot-water system (which knocks occasionally as well). His company seems on point although we haven't had any work done yet, and John's posts on brownstoner are always helpful. Check them out at gatewayplumbing.com.
Posted by: Drew at November 18, 2005 11:19 AM
I also recommend reading the Holohan book. We still have two occasional banging areas that we're trying to pinpoint, but no more hissing radiators, banging pipes and cold rooms.
The book is great at helping understand the steam systems. Once you understand the steam, everything else seems to make a lot more sense. It's amazing what a difference a new $10 radiator vent can make.
Posted by: HC at November 18, 2005 12:40 PM
If the radiators themselves are banging, make sure that the radiator knobs are all the way "open" or all the way "closed". Anything in the middle can cause the banging, as steam and water try to share a smaller space going in and out of the radiator. . .
Posted by: HC at November 18, 2005 12:45 PM
brownstoner, please tell me what you end of doing (and paying) as I have the same issue at my house. Everyone else, can you tell me what you ended up paying? I've bought and read the book, and I still think it's going to cost me thousands to stop the water hammer in my pipes.
Posted by: alan at November 18, 2005 1:34 PM
I also recommend the Dan Halohan books. His website is www.heatinghelp.com. There's a terrific forum there.
Brownstoner, I'm sure I posted on this subject here not very long ago.
First check that your radiators are pitched toward the supply valve. If they're not, use shims under the low side so the condensed water drains back toward the supply valve. If you still have problems, see the post above about pipes that have settled and are pitched the wrong way. The condensed water is supposed to be able to drain back to boiler through the same pipes the steam came up in.
When I found the problem in a pipe in my basement, I hired a plumber to repitch the pipe. He charged me $400. The noise is gone. The heating specialists I had come and look made estimates in the thousands.
You may have a simple problem that can be solved for thousands of dollars too. Educate yourself so you can discriminate between the knuckleheads and right guy to do the job.
Posted by: Hal at November 18, 2005 1:48 PM
hey brownstoner . i emailed you my cel ## . gimme a call . after 12 yrs of buying and selling buildings , i know all about banging . i delt with the same problem last winter . it's not as bad as you think
Posted by: electricgreek1 at November 18, 2005 1:51 PM
Properly pitching the radiators and piping is certainly good advice. On the other hand, there is often more to the story.
Near-boiler piping is critical as is good, clear return lines and proper pressure settings.
Pipe sizes at the boiler determine how quickly steam will move through the system.
Steam leaving a boiler at an excellerated rate will carry excess water with it, and thus, contribute to water hammer (that's that banging sound).
Dan Holohan has personally trained many of my technicians as well as myself. He has known my company for many years and has passed our name on to many area residents.
That said, I can tell you there is no more knowledgeable person on the subject of steam heating than he, and none more qualified to write the books he does.
"We Got Steam Heat" is a must-have. It WILL save a homeowner money on unnecessary service calls.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at November 18, 2005 5:58 PM
I had the problem bad, and got it fixed for less than $200, after many "experts" said it would cost big bucks. Besides what people said about pitch of the radiators and the right valves, another important element is making sure the boiling water is clean (no "surging")... This can be taken care with a special cleaner that you put in the boiler...that did the trick for me. even though I was draining the boiler periodically, it didn't get clean enough until I did that. The plumber I used was Joe at AAL Inc, older guy, hopefully still in business.
Posted by: OE at November 18, 2005 10:15 PM
WE SHOULD START A CLUB FOR RECOVERING RADIATOR ABUSE. SPENDING THE NIGHT IN MY HOME FOR THE FIRST TIME POST RECONNECT OF A RADIATOR THAT HAD BEEN DISCONNECTING FROM THE PREVIOUS TENANT... SHE BANGS! SHE BANGS! FUNNY THING IS THERE SERVICE GUY DID THE RECONNECT FOR THIS PARTICULAR RADIATOR ( BEDROOM OF COURSE!) ND BEFORE THE WINTER CHILL ALL WAS QUIET. I TOO LOOK FORWARD TO PICKING UP THIS BOOK, MAYBE WE CAN ALL GET THE SLEEP WE DESERVE. BY NY STANDARDS THAT SHOULD BE 5 HRS ( SMILEZZZZZZZZZZ)
Posted by: SHUG AVERY at November 20, 2005 8:40 PM
To the poster who recommended John from Gateway - I second that. John is excellent, and he comes recommended by Heating Help web site. (Gateway is listed there under "Find a Professional") But you absolutely MUST read the Dan H book ASAP that everyone is talking about. Call Heating Help and rush order it. It reads like a Grimm fairy tale. You will be happy you read it and will fall in love with your system.
Posted by: sulnusva at November 21, 2005 10:53 AM
We had a very similar problems - the previous owners' plumber said that nothing could be done (after they bought a new boiler). My husband read the We got steam heat book, and insulated all of our basement pipes, boiled some of the valves to get rid of build-up, and replaced several of them. About 80% of the knocking is gone, and it makes a HUGE difference.
Good luck!
Posted by: anon at November 21, 2005 5:12 PM
werber plumbing came by and did a yearly check that has not been done in decades. turns out we were adding too much water and it was backing up so now we just hear a rattling noise. much better. call them, they're pretty good .
Posted by: Anonymous at November 23, 2005 3:56 PM
So it seems there are 3 steps to take in trying to resolve the pipe clanging issue.
1. Drain the boiler of water - to remove sediment and to make sure that there is not excess water in the pipes.
2 Pitch the radiator at an angle to certify proper drainage back to the boiler.
3.Open and or replace the vents on the radiators.
Question: What about the large shut off valve on the other end of the radiator, how do you know if it is part of the problem? Are there any symptoms that make it clear that that is the source of the problem?
Also I hear a rattling sound in the radiator like something metal is loose and shaking. Any idea what that is?
Thanks
Byron
Posted by: Byron at November 24, 2005 6:59 PM
Rattling in a radiator comes from either a shut off valve that is not fully-open or fully-closed or a cheap, cruddy air vent.
There are other causes, like a regulating orifice that has come loose, but occur with much less frequency and are usually associated with the workings of a 2-pipe system. Most people have a 1-pipe system. Start by opening the valve all the way but don't force it open. You could snap the internal parts off in place.
Good luck. Stay warm.
Posted by: Master Plvmber at November 25, 2005 10:45 AM
Great site! I know my plumbing (3 brownstones in Park Slope) and my steam,but now I have noise (described as ball bearings bouncing around, not banging) in the TOP of the TOP floor stand pipe!!! Not a radiator. I plan on replacing the vent there, but wonder what it could be. This is not my apt, but my tenants, so I haven't heard it firsthand. I don't see noise coming from condensate 4 stories up a straight pipe.
Any suggestions?
Posted by: Steve Ettlinger at January 10, 2006 2:53 PM
I am having some problems with 2 of my radiators in the house. When the heating comes on, these radiators make loud knocking noises and then the noise dies away. When i switching the heating off, when the system is cooling down, i hear the noises again. Any suggestions>>>
Posted by: K Patel at January 12, 2006 5:58 AM
Having the same problem in a 100-y/o building in Washington, DC. Anyone know of knoweledgeable professionals in the DC area?
Posted by: Vince at January 24, 2006 6:53 PM
I know nothing about these radiator systems. I live on the 2nd floor of an old building in Manhattan. My living room has the coiled iron floor mount along with one pole running from floor to ceiling while the two bedrooms have two poles next to each other in which one gets real hot but certainly doesn't suffice in heating the room. My apartment in always cold and the system makes unbeliveably loud clanging when it comes on....what is going on?
Posted by: Kevin at January 29, 2006 12:44 PM
everything postes is correct. pitch the pipes, vent correctly etc. however in my experience the banging problem usually has a more fundimental problem..dirty boiler water. this causes a great deal of saturated steam in the system causing large amounts of condensate. this is then aggrivated by any of the other conditions. before anything clean out your boiler & piping. a can of dry steam usually workes well for this. buy at plumbing supply store.
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