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August 18, 2005

Question of the Day: Private Security?

On the same day last week, we heard in the morning from a policeman that the 88th Precinct (Fort Greene and Clinton Hill) had finally gotten a boost in manpower and in the afternoon that our neighbor across the street had been robbed the night before. We're wondering what people think about the idea of supplementing the local police force with some private security. Our GC told us he thinks the local "bad guys" won't be put off by rent-a-cops. Other people have said that bringing in private security would only antagonize relations between gentrifiers and old-timers. We're sure other people's response will be "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." But if you've already committed to being in a neighborhood, should political correctness stop you from doing everything you can to ensure the safety of your family? Is passing the hat to your neighbors to raise money for a night-time patrol realistic?




Posted by Brownstoner at 9:29 AM | Comments (123)
Categories: Discussion

Comments

Why don't you go and meet your neighbors and establish a block patrol on the nights that it seems most crazy. Thats what a community is about, taking control of your space and making relationships with your neighbors, so safety can be established and all the neighbors can participate in making it so. Your presence will deter crime considerably.

Throwing your money around will only alienate people, and escalate the problem.


Posted by: crownstoner at August 18, 2005 10:25 AM

I am usually eith you, Brownstoner. Just not on that one. Sorry. Why don't you put up a high fence around your block and call it Paradise Village? You've made a choice. Now take responsability and live with it! And it's got nothing to do with political correctness. This will never be Connecticut, mate!

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 10:29 AM

Private security has a lot of upside. As with anything private, b/c there is a client-customer relationship, the security is actually accountable for its performance, unlike the city-run police that only answer to their union and political bosses. And since increased security would help both poor and rich residents, there's no reason it should be a class issue.

However, as with any private security force issues arise over accountability and regulation. The line between security and vigilantiism can be unclear, and the roles and responsibilities of security forces are also difficult to define. Not to mention the cost of hiring rent-a-cops.

In FG, we've often used volunteer crime watch patrols and other community measures to decent effect. No one should object to the community working together to reduce crime, so long as the measures are reasonable and limits are clearly set.

Posted by: escap at August 18, 2005 10:31 AM

I think you knew what you were getting into, no? Did you check out crime stats before the move? Now Greenpoint, on the other hand, safest precinct in Brooklyn! We barely lock our doors!

Posted by: Alan at August 18, 2005 10:32 AM

I'm with Anon@10:29 - if you want private security, move to a gated community. It strikes me as incredibly elitist and ineffectual.

If you want to improve your neighborhood, get involved. A block patrol is one thought. Your precint has monthly community council meetings - go to them. Hear where the problems are, talk to the police about the problems you see.

Otherwise, move to Seaside (www.seasidefl.com/). Sorry to be so harsh, but that's pretty anti-NYC in my book.

Posted by: Anon718 at August 18, 2005 10:37 AM

1. please hire private security guards to police gentrified brooklyn. great idea.
2. relations between invaders and brooklynites will become horribly strained, and
3. some sort of riot or public outburst will ensue,
4. which will lead to the collapse of the real estate market,
5. which will make rents, finally, normal and affordable, thus leading to
6. an influx of some non-yuppies--people who aren't trying, through money and influence, with the best of intentions, to ruin the borough that they think they love.

Posted by: aNONymous at August 18, 2005 10:38 AM

We didn't say we were committed to doing this, merely exploring the idea. We were throwing it out for discussion so you can chill on the elitist labels.

Posted by: Brownstoner at August 18, 2005 10:40 AM

I'm on the fence about this too. i live in CH and have attended these monthly meetings and frankly nothing gets done. Ms. James is totally ineffectual and the precinct is still totally corrupt. the community does need to organize, but i think that there is still too much resentment by people who've been there awhile towards newcomers who are accustomed to a more responsive council rep and police precinct. it's a complete waste of time because it impedes progress, but it is human nature that people need to feel like big fish in little ponds and will always fight change, even if it's for the better - in this case, safety and clean streets.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 10:47 AM

I tried to talk to the police about the dealers on grand and putnam and they told me to move out of the neighbourhood if I had a problem. no joke.

Posted by: mrs.brownstoner at August 18, 2005 10:49 AM

So what happens to those who can't afford to chip in? This sounds like a way to really piss off your neighbors. Have you even moved in yet? Why don't you go to a few block/neighborhood association meetings first. Listen to the concerns about crime and find out if/how things are being addressed. Don't come in trying to change things right from the beginning.

Thats what most people fear about gentrification. Some outsider coming in telling them what's wrong with their neighborhood and how the "new sheriff" in town is going to fix everything.

Posted by: Nativegal at August 18, 2005 10:49 AM

Maybe this is an elitist proposal that will alienate your old-time neighbors. Or maybe it's not a class issue since rich and poor neighbors would benefit. The only thing for sure is: the most important opinions you should get are those of your meatspace neighbors -- all of them, of all incomes -- not those of a bunch of people reading a blog.

In any case, I don't think the question is political correctness. It's that for any fix to work in the long term, you need your neighbors all pulling together. So bring the safety issue up as you get to know them, and ask them if *they* think there's a problem and what they think would work, rather than say as soon as you move in, "Your neighborhood needs private security. Aere you going to chip in or not?"

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 18, 2005 10:52 AM

I have to agree with Crownstoner. Why not get involved with your local precinct? Join Block Watchers. Talk to the community affairs officer at the 88th, create a block association, join the Clinton Hill Society, Fort Greene Assn...
There is the Wa-Greene, (Washington & Greene Aves), Carlton-Willoughby (carltonavenue@hotmail.com) & several others whom you can get info on at the Borough president's office.


I think what frustrates me most about this topic is that many of the people who are moving to the neighborhood really don;t want to put in the effort to make their blocks, communities & schools better.

Posted by: Clinton Hill mom at August 18, 2005 10:59 AM

Why is everyone assuming the pro security crowd are the newcomers? I was born and raised in FG, and my family has been in the nabe for almost 40 years. I'm not really in favor of hiring private security forces b/c I don't think it's necessary--the nabe is safe! and b/c they're ineffectual. Let's face it, guys, we're not talking about bringing in armed guards here, just some older guys walking around with cell phones. In another words, they're the same thing as a community patrol. What's so elitist or divisive about it? Most of the guards would be working class black guys. I doubt i-bankers would be moonlighting as bklyn guards during their time off!

The Fulton Mall has rent-a-cops, and it's not like a Connecticut gated community there.

Posted by: escap at August 18, 2005 11:02 AM

I'd like to hear suggestions on what to do when getting responses like the one Mrs Brownstoner got.
Do you go up the chain of command until you get a satisfoctory response? Or does the solution come from the members of that block working with the police in a program like block watchers?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 11:06 AM

Are you serious???!!! You're moving to CH from WILLIAMSBURG. Don't they have crime? I've heard about numerous rapes and muggings over there. In CH (where I've lived for almot 7 years), not so much.

Maybe an alarm system would be appropriate if you're really worried. (Did your neighbors who got robbed have one?) But private security, come on. Would they wear jackboots and goosestep around with German Shepards?

Viva Apartheid!

I agree with anon. 10:29, maybe you should flip your house and move to CT.

Posted by: clinton hillbilly at August 18, 2005 11:06 AM

People get robbed everywhere. Even in Park Slope and the Upper East Side and Westchester. It's sad but it's a fact of life I guess. I'm not saying you shouldn't be concerned about what happens across the street from your house - as everyone here is saying you should definitely be involved and active and speak up and give a damn. But presumably you have bars on lower/back windows, and I'm guessing you probably have an alarm system. Now private security. What next? And to reiterate what the poster below said, YOU HAVEN'T EVEN MOVED IN YET!!!

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 11:06 AM

The bottom line is, why fix it if it ain't broke. Crime is at historic lows. I still think people are exaggerating what "private security" means, as if we'd have some occupying army in our streets or something, but the reality is that the area is so safe that a little common sense is about all you need (knock on wood).

Posted by: escap at August 18, 2005 11:11 AM

mrs. b,

That sounds pretty rude of the cops, but I'm going to play devil's advocate. Maybe what they heard was some new yuppie informing them of a drug problem they've known about for some time -- probably one of many they deal with with limited resources -- and saying "People like me live here now! Time for you to straighten up!"

Police should want to get input from the community, of course, but maybe they thought you were implying that, if there are drugs on that corner, it must be because the cops are lazy or stupid, because otherwise they would have taken care of it already. Which even if correct is not going to get you anywhere.

I'm not saying those were your words or even your tone, but gentrification situations always lead to people reading things into what their new neighbors are saying.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 18, 2005 11:14 AM

oooh, but then again, you did post your floor plans online...

Maybe private security is not such a bad idea after all. Why involve the neighbors, just hire your own personal night watchman. I'm sure some "working class black guy" would be happy to oblige.

Posted by: anonymousse at August 18, 2005 11:16 AM

Jesus, is there something insulting about that? Is there something wrong with being poor or working class? As someone whose family was on food stamps when I was young, I take offense. Give me a break, will I offend you if I lock my door at night or is that elitist too?

Posted by: escap at August 18, 2005 11:24 AM

I am the neighbor to Brownstoner who was robbed. We are now having ADT installed and did not have it when we were burgled. We do have bars on the back lower windows, but they got in thru the back door. We believe as do the police that it was a neighbor who had access to our garden. In fact, they jumped over the 6" fence. Unfortuantley, a block patrol or private security cannot see in the back of our houses. What all of our neighbors need to do is install sensor lights.

As to that Greenpoint resident, in my opinion, your housing stock, location and lack of diversity make your neighborhood much less desirable despite your "low" crime rate. So, I'm staying in Clinton Hill and no robber is going to deter me or my family.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 11:24 AM

B-stoner neighbor,
What did they take? and how did they get it back over the 6' fence? Was your back door locked? Not trying to blame the victim (very sorry this happened to you) just curious?

Posted by: anonymous at August 18, 2005 11:29 AM

Try the block association patrol route first.

Posted by: Daniel at August 18, 2005 11:33 AM

a lot of crime happens because people don't think- yes, it'd be nice if we could all be lax about things but common sense goes a long way. my husband was mugged at our front door by a guy with a knife but he was just home from work (it was still very much daylight @ 8pm and the street very active) and he was tired and did a few stupid things that in retrospect made him look like eye candy to the drug addict that needed some money... yes, it shouldn't have to be that way but it is. in fact he thinks he saw the guy at the deli on the corner the other night- it's almost just funny now. the guy just wanted money to buy drugs and realized it was easier to flash a knife and get it then just ask nice and not get it... there's more details to that story but one of the cops pulled up and said to the other "another one"- everyone on the street knows how easy it can be to get cash if you're willing to go for it. of course it's going to happen. i'd like to know the details of the house robberies, how did they get in, what time did it happen etc. these details would be good to know so that everyone can know what to watch for, listen for etc.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 11:40 AM

We've got a private security company doing patrol in Prospect Park South. Is it effective? I don't know for sure. The guy cruises around in his little SUV and shines lights on the houses, but I think his shift ends at about 10 p.m. Of course, the difference with my neighborhood is that the houses are stand alone so the guy is looking for people trying to break in rather than to establish a presence on the streets. We put in an alarm system in our house which has already scared off one intruder. On another occasion when the alarm was tripped inadvertently by us, it took the cops a half hour to arrive after they had been notified. In summary, I don't know what the answer is, other than increased vigilence by all of us. Certainly, the cops don't have me resting easy.

Posted by: Tommy at August 18, 2005 11:41 AM

I for one would like to hear from others in the neighborhood about the steps they've taken to make their home safer. Lights? Alarms, what?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 11:52 AM

Seems like a ship with too many leaks. Private security works in homogenous communities, Hasidic or Country Clubbers, your nabe is way to diverse and un-united to reach common ground on this. Some people, like yourselves with investments to protect, will end up footing the bill, but eventually the vigor will fade and so will the interest in paying for something of questionable utility.

Posted by: dave b at August 18, 2005 12:12 PM

This is an insane idea. Work with the established organizations to improve your area. Otherwise, it's just simple arrogance.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 12:16 PM

Just don't go crazy with the search lights . . .

Front stoop lights with a motion detector are a good thing. Backyard motion detector floodlights . . . . well, just be sure you're not pointing that light in your neighbor's bedroom window. It took me more than a year to get someone to redirect one of those things and turn down the wattage to a safe AND considerate level.

I presume most people know it's potentially unsafe to go to the ATM on your way home...reading the crime blotter in Park Slope, for years there's been robberies on 8th Ave between Flatbush (2 ATMs) and radiating streets.

For Prospect Heights, there's been a pretty active bit of blogging on crime and local police response on dailyheights.com's message boards. People used to say 'talk to your precinct' to find out about crime patterns, but I'm seeing great info elsewhere these days...

Posted by: LG at August 18, 2005 12:17 PM

brownstoner, you've mentioned this idea before. I think it's a bad one.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 12:17 PM

I have a couple of questions to ask Anonymous who was robbed, and the others out there willing to answer-

1. You say a neighbor did it, do you have someone in mind? It would seem to me that you must be looking at all your neighbors askance if you suspect one of them did it.

2. You also say that the lack of diversity in greenpoint makes it much less desirable, but do you foresee the diversity in CH and FG lasting?

3. do those of you who live in CH and FG talk to your black neighbors, or do you keep to yourselves?

I live in B-Stuy, and I see new people on my block and when you try to make eye contact, it's almost as if you don't exist. All, that I have encountered, make a pointed effort to avoid any interaction whatsoever.

Sometimes it seems as though a sense of guilt keeps them from looking me in the eye less they receive some sort of verbal abuse. I'm not like that though.

Posted by: browngirl at August 18, 2005 12:21 PM

I think there are two separate questions:

1. Are rent-a-cop's effective? I don't think anyone here has posted an answer to that.

2. Is there something morally "wrong" about this? I can't understand why it would be. What if you want to rent a dancer or a singer? If people in the area want to pay for it, why not? If someone is proposing retroactively forming a community association and forcing everyone to join and pay in, then that doesn't sound very fair. But if five people want to pitch in for a security guard, I don't get why anyone should be able to dissent. It's not their $.

What is really troubling are the posts from people who say things like "if you don't like the crime, leave". I thought no one likes crime and everyone wants to reduce it. Is there a desireable level of crime?

Posted by: JoshK at August 18, 2005 12:23 PM

Well, I have to side with the folks who think that a private security force would not only allientate a lot of people, but would also be fairly ineffective. And, trust me, I ain't tryin to be PC. The thought has occurred to me even in Park Slope - What if we could have private security for our block, and private street cleaning, and private parking, etc. Ahhh... sometimes I dream about the Connectitcut life, but (fortunately) my dear wife won't allow it.

Anyhow, I have a lot of concerns about security for any number of reasons. I'm a worry-wart. First of all, I simply worry about my family, and second, my home is filled with things that are really valuable to us. And it's a big home, so somebody could break in on the parlor floor while we are asleep on the top floor and we would never hear it.

I've dealt with my concerns a couple different ways:

#1 - Get neighbors involved. This one is just fundamental. The more you know the block, the faster you will be alerted to problems. Organize block events, stop and hang with the neighbors. Ask them to keep a watch on your house. Organize a block watch. There is power in numbers. And if the cops here about something from 20 different homes, they'll have to pay attention. On my block we have effectively petitioned the city for all kinds of things. Somewhere on your block there is a "mayor". Find that person and utilize them to help you improve things.

#2 - Get good home insurance. Seriously. Not the run-of-the-mill stuff, but home insurance designed for people with expensive, renovated homes filled with details and custom kitchens, and such. Chubb, Firemans, AIG Private-Client, these firms will fully insure you. And they charge a pretty penny for it too. But, hey, weren't we just talking about hiring your very own private security force? So, the money is there isn't it.

#3 - Spend the extra bucks to provide good outdoor lighting, both front and back. Also, encourage neighbors to do things like keep their porch/stoop lights on all night, install extra outdoor lighting, etc. when the block looks safer, it will actually be safer.

#4 - Bars on ground floor windows, heavy-duty locks on doors. This is all just common sense stuff.

#5- Get a kick-ass alarm system. No, I do not mean the ADT special of the week. That stuff is a complete joke. They will try to tell you that a couple of motion sensors will protect an entire brownstone. Shesh... you would be safer without the false sense of security. No, hire a professional security company, that will do a complete survey of your home, performed by someone with a law-enforcement background. And they will recommend a system that features sensors on virtually every door, window, and hatch, combined with motion and smoke detectors on every floor. And they'll recommend things like fire sensors for your boiler and wireless back-up (in case somebody cuts your phone lines). Now all this will not come cheap. The minimum you could hope to pay for an installation of this type is $3500. And you could pay up to $7000. And we are not even talking about the monthly monitoring fees. but, you will be dealing with pros, who will provide flawless service. Is it worth it? Well, let's see... it's still probably way cheaper and way more effective than hiring a private security force.

Posted by: BigBubba at August 18, 2005 12:35 PM

On my block, there was a rash of back window breakins some years back. This effected a variety of people with a variety of skin colors and income levels. Neighbors who talked to each other had a pretty good idea of who was doing it, and it was indeed a neighbor with a drug problem.

Posted by: LG at August 18, 2005 12:38 PM

When a newcomer moves in to a more 'questionable area' (area with rep for higher crime)- and hears 1st hand of crime closeby they tend to react more strongly.
Am I making mistake?, or ohmygod it isn't safe!
If someone moves to UES and happens next door they are more apt to take it in stride but when moving to 'poorer' area it reaffirms their misgivings.
I doubt very much trying to get neighboors pay for private security is likely to get much support nor be effective if there was one.


The policemans response was absolutely inexcusable and should be reported to higher up or local politician.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 1:08 PM

My house was broken into couple years ago. Guy must have used crowbar to pry open the 'hatch' in front of house that goes down into cellar.
Now instead of just the sliding latch I have one of those
stong bike locks on inside of hatch doors.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 1:16 PM

Josh K, there is no acceptable level of crime, however given where we live, it is inevitable that at some point in time, someone you know will be a victim of it.

And yes in a perfect world no one should care if a group of people put together money to hire a security guard. The fact is that there seems to be a fine line to tread between moving into a community and acting as such, and moving into a house within a community.

Posted by: browngirl at August 18, 2005 1:22 PM

I'd like to hear someone explain the fundamental difference between private security and police. One is paid for by the community, provides security of questionable efficacy, is bound by the law and accountable to the community. The other...same thing. Only difference I can see is that the police carry guns which makes them more effective but also prone to the occasional beating or killing. Private cops are relatively puny, so why are they branded as elitist? What's all the fuss about?

Posted by: no difference at August 18, 2005 1:24 PM

Are you just worried about your house being violated, or do you wish to have the entire neighborhood made more "secure?" The individual Victorian Flatbush neighborhoods have had private security for many years. It isn't perfect, but it does provide many services that I, personally, appreciate. By the way, if you've ever been here, you'll know that Ditmas Park is hardly a "gated community" - and that the community is very integrated, including home owners.

Private Security in my neighborhood works into the wee hours on Friday and Saturday nights. The paying members for the private security chose these extended weekend hours, because noise issues are at a peak then. Security cars, if called by a paying security patrol member (you need give a password), will meet you at the subway late at night and follow you home, if you feel at all threatened. Furthermore, they will continually check your home when you are away on vacation to make sure all seems well, and will ring your front door bell to make sure children getting home from school (middle schoolers, high schoolers) have actually arrived. If your alarm goes off, ADT will contact the security patrol as well as the homeowner. In many instances, the security patrol will get their long before you will. If your locks or windows are damaged and you are away, they will arrange to have the house secured. I could go on...

To make security cost effective in this neighborhood (not PPS), we need half of all homeowners to sign on each year. The more people that sign up, the cheaper the service becomes for the community.

We thought long and hard about signing up for private security, and then renewing it. It isn't cheap, but I'm glad we did it. Especially since we have children who are getting older, and wanting greater independence. By the way, if you don't establish private security while your kids are young, it may not be there when your kids are older - when you really will appreciate it the most.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 1:27 PM

Thank you, Ditmas Park resident. Finally, someone willing to counter the hysterical class-war mongering of most of the posts below. My sister is moving into the housing complexes on Lafayette and Clinton, and she was very pleased to see they have 24 hour security in those buildings. It's just a lone guard in a booth--not some oppressive force of elitist gentrifiers roughing up every local they see. I'm sure all of the residents in those buildings are happy to have that guard there for their own safety, and I'm sure they view the guards as friends, not oppressors.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 1:43 PM

anon at 1:27 -- you mention that only paying members can have security escort them from the subway. Are the other services you mention also available only to paying members, or to everyone?

Some people here have said the class issue shouldn't matter, since the whole neighborhood would benefit equally. But if you basically have some people paying to be safer than others on their block, that's gotta create resentment. Especially in a nabe with big income disparities. (Perhaps that's not as much an issue in Ditmas / PPS / etc. as it is in CH?)

Have you had any issues between security haves and have-nots?

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 18, 2005 1:45 PM

We looked at many neighborhoods in Brooklyn when buying our home. The private securtity that already existed here was one of the reasons we settled on Ditmas Park.

I lived in a coop on the Lower East Side previous to that. Another very diverse community. I chose my coop there because it had 24 hour private security. I was a single mother with a little girl. I don't think it mattered what color I was, or anyone else. It gave me, and my neighbors, who came in all hues, incredible peace of mind.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 1:47 PM

Anon w/private security in Victorian Flatbush,

Many of the benefits you mentioned are things that I rely on neighbors for, such as watching and checking on my house when I am away, checking on my family if I'm not there to, etc. And if my alarm goes off, the security co. will call me, or if I can't be reached will try to reach designated neighbors, who would secure my home, etc. As for walking somebody home from the subway, I can see how Victorian Flatbush might be kinda desolate on the street after dark, but the brownstone nabes generally have a much livlier street life. It sounds like the private patrols in th Flatbush nabes are there as much to keep the streets clear of nusance elements, as for safety (or do you see them as being one and the same). Also, as someone already pointed out, standalone houses are a different animal than attached townhouses. Also, in some respect, the Flatbush nabes are more homogeneous - not by race or ethnicity, but by ownership, values, etc. I don't think Clinton Hill is comparable in the least.

Posted by: BigBubba at August 18, 2005 1:49 PM

The escort service is only available to paying members.

Let me say that there is definately a wide range in incomes in Ditmas Park, despite the $1million dollar plus price tags we've seen recently. There are still many families here who bought there houses for $30K in the early seventies. Some of these families, it's true, really can't afford private security. Some save and scrape to pay for it. Some wealthy homeowners choose not to subscribe to private security. There's no one "blueprint" here.

There seems to be no resentment on the part of the non subscribers with respect to not getting the perks the paying members are getting from private security. In fact one of the most common remarks you hear from people trying to justify not subscribing is, "Security already drives up and down my street. Why bother paying?" The non-subscribers seem very happy to benefit from the presence of the security patrol, and even happier to have their neighbors pay for that service for them. There's probably more resentment from the people who pay for private security against those who don't (and can afford it). Overall, though, everyone seems to be OK with having the security patrol visible in the neighborhood.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 1:53 PM

Flatbush nabes are not as homogenous as you might assume. Come on out and take a walk around. Also, as I stated earlier, I was happy to have private security on the Lower East Side - for many of the same reasons you brownstoners might take into consideration. Things happen. Everywhere.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 1:55 PM

Flatbush nabes are not as homogenous as you might assume. Come on out and take a walk around. Also, as I stated earlier, I was happy to have private security on the Lower East Side - for many of the same reasons you brownstoners might take into consideration. Things happen. Everywhere. To people of all ethnic backrounds, of all income levels.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 1:56 PM

We have a block association. We are on the block with the rehab center (fulton & waverly). The block assoc has actually been very effective in curbing the drug activity that was going on on the block. There was a lot of coke sniffing out in broad daylight. Point is, i think it's best if the homeowners band together. the 88 precinct has also been responsive to calls and even come to the block meeting along with representatives from the center. it's not perfect, but it definitely helps.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:07 PM

Fulton & waverly block association poster-when do you meet? can you leave some contact info? I live on Waverly too & want to be a part of the group.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:14 PM

Who cares if people resent it.... I mean its your FAMILY for god sakes- If the choice is between the stares of a few left-wingers and neighborhood oldtimers and having my daughter/wife raped or robbed - ill take the stares. Now I happen to beleive that rent-a-cops generally dont work - they are (generally) low -skilled, often have criminal records themselves and there has been more than one case where they instead of protecting property they acted as lookouts for others. But that being said, there are many neighborhoods in Brooklyn (my lower PS among them) that have entirelly too much crime and apathetic neighbors who either have some sort of gentrifiers guilt or think that drug dealing, burglary or even violent crime is acceptable. Let me tell you - I dont give a flying f how long someone has lived on my block or area - I bought my place, pay taxes and do all I am suppossed to as a citizen and if some lowlife is comminting crimes and I see it, I am going to do EVERYTHING necessary to put a stop to it - and if the local police think I am some yuppie or the neighbors think I am a right-winger so be it. BTW I have no guilt about being a gentrifier - I was priced out of my original neighborhood, I dont expect any dispensation for it - its called life -deal with it.

Posted by: David at August 18, 2005 2:17 PM

I have to agree with the very first comment here--crownstoner's. Accusations of elitism aside, I think stronger community connections would be more effective than hired guns (pun intended). The famous urbanist, Jane Jacobs, showed that community conhesion in the form of "eyes on the street" deters crime, regardless of neighborhood demographics, geography, etc. (See Mitch Duneier's book, Sidewalk, as a more recent example.) And if I'm not mistaken, more recent urban research shows that increased authoritative security--whether it be police, private guards, surveillance technology, etc.--positively correlates with increased crime. Counterintuitive, I know, but worth considering.

Posted by: JC at August 18, 2005 2:21 PM

Now that you mention this escort thing, it sounds a lot better. Are they cute?

Posted by: JoshK at August 18, 2005 2:22 PM

simple. see a crime pick up the phone. whether its one guy snorting some coke or a group of noisy inidividuals on the corner(ya may not be a crime but get the police to drive by anyway). let the little stuff slip by and it gets worse. make the neighborhood unpleasant for unpleasant indidviduals...

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:25 PM

In my Ditmas Park neighborhood it is the Neighborhood Association which organizes the private security, holds the meetings to vote on hours, special services, etc... It's part of the much larger agenda of the neighborhood association. The two go hand in hand.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:25 PM

Retaliation is not something you want to invite. You don't want the party you report to have so much as an inkling it might be you. 311 makes you give your name and address when filing a complaint. It's a lot simpler (and safer) to have the Security Patrol call 311, or deal with the issue.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:30 PM

brownstoner's block may already have a block association

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:30 PM

#6 - Buy a shotgun.

Posted by: Thomas Jefferson at August 18, 2005 2:31 PM

David,

"Who cares if people resent it?..."

I'm assuming Brownstoner does, at least a little, or he wouldn't have asked. I'm not saying he should care. More practically, one reason is that having good, tight relations with neighbors -- having neighbors who talk to you, keep you up on the news, keep an eye out on your house, etc., etc. -- is itself a security benefit. Not to mention part of quality of life.

You yourself said you doubt whether these patrols work well. So it's at least possible that Brownstoner might be giving up more in the security of a cohesive neighborhood than he would be gaining.

Anyway, I have no PC axe to grind here, just thought Ditmas' experience would be relevant to Brownstoner. Relax.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 18, 2005 2:39 PM

anonynmous 2:30 re retaliation,

if you are too afraid to pick up the phone and call the police in you're own neighborhood the battle is already lost...

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:41 PM

3. do those of you who live in CH and FG talk to your black neighbors, or do you keep to yourselves?

Some of us ARE the black neighbors.

but to your point, a little neighborly friendliness does go a long way. In black culture we are taught to "speak" at a very young age. It is extremely disrespectful not to greet the people you encounter on a daily basis. I've noticed that a lot of white people don't necessarily understand this concept. Not saying hi to your neighbors and others you may pass on the street is considered rude.

Posted by: clinton hillbilly at August 18, 2005 2:42 PM

I believe $10 a hour rent a cops wouldn't mind get a cut of the stolen loot, and I can see them as lookouts as previously mentioned.

I would recommend getting a dog. Ft. Greene park has the most dog friendly park around NYC, get a dog and the crime will stop. Added bonus, your stress levels go down and your quality of life will increase. Trust me.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:43 PM

I'm not too afraid to pick up the phone and call 311. I've done it and I speak from experience.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:43 PM

Community patrols work when you have a lot of homeowners who live in the neighborhood. If you live in an area of mostly renters, the absentee landlords and renters probably won't pay or care about private security or a neighborhood watch, as the situation seems short-term to both.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:45 PM

A dog? Ughhh. Shedding, barking, generally berserk behaviour. No thanks. My stress levels would go up exponentially.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:46 PM

I've call 311 a couple times in Ft. Greene and nothing has happened, so I placed a follow-up call directly to the 88th precient, and finally got results. They were kind and understanding and helpful.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:46 PM

lol clinton hillbilly thats something i noticed. i live in in ch, formerly from park slope... my non-white neighbors are far friendlier and more outgoing than my white neighbors in ch or ever were ps

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:47 PM

A dog's behavior mimics the owner, so if you can't control it, that's not the dog's fault. I would put up with shedding over broken windows and pried-open doors.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:47 PM

test

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:50 PM

2:47:

That's bollocks. Some people are just cat people. Go ahead, get yourself a pack of dogs. What's the limit in NY per household? Six? You're neighbors are going to just love you.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 2:50 PM

fulton and waverly block association info. you can email me and i will give you the details

Posted by: dawn at August 18, 2005 3:06 PM

Agree with the speaking to neighbors thing. Very important. There is this hipster dude on my block who refuses to speak to anyone or even look you in the eye, even though he's always outside smoking cigs and yakking into his cell phone. I walk by him every day, he barely looks up.

If a group of home boys came along and started beating the crap out of this snot right in front of me, I'd just laugh out loud and keep walking. Honest.


Posted by: BigBubba at August 18, 2005 3:06 PM

Last time I greeted one of my black neighbor who was taught to "speak" at an early age, he really did speak...he spoke by telling me to get my honky-ass back to Manhattan...

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 3:12 PM

linusvanpelt - While Rent-a-cops probably are useless, I am really responding to this attitude that seems to prevail amongst many that if you moved to a neighborhood later than someone else, or you paid more then the longtermers or your not the same ethnicity as the majority, you should somehow feel guilty or not demand police or govt address quality of life issues. Sure be nice to your neighbors, but you might find that they are unwilling to help (heck some of my neighbors think the weed spot at the corner is a "cultural" thing and shouldnt be worried about) - in these cases (and others) you better be willing to be the skweaky wheel or you may find you are living in a slum no matter what the price tag on the door.

Posted by: David at August 18, 2005 3:21 PM

Browngirl - what in the world does "talking to you black neighbors" mean? I assume you are asking do you talk to ALL your neighbors. Because given the number of black crime victims it is clear they probably wont no anymore about avoiding getting robbed than anyone else.

Posted by: David at August 18, 2005 3:24 PM

3:12 -- he actually said "honky"? I didn't think anyone has said that since Sherman Helmsley.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 18, 2005 3:24 PM

I called you Vanilla Ice, not a honkey, ya stupid cracker.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 3:32 PM

Who's Vanilla Ice?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 3:33 PM

david, where do you live?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 3:43 PM

lower PS

Posted by: David at August 18, 2005 3:47 PM

You write a blog posting your floorplans and detailing where the plasma TV will go and then wonder why you got robbed? Or will get robbed....

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 3:54 PM

David,

Funny, I'm lower PS too (b/w 4th and 5th Aves) and I've never noticed the guilt / antipathy toward calling cops etc. on my block, among newbies or oldtimers. There are some cultural differences but people have definitely been willing to raise a stink -- whether about criminal activity or trash piling up -- and if anything the oldtimers are more aggressive about it. I mean, a person wants to secure his home whatever he paid and whenever he bought. We've worked together with our old-neighborhood neighbors on stuff like this, the key being to get to know people and have relationships so that you're not just dealing with them when there's a problem. But I guess even within neighborhoods blocks vary a lot.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 18, 2005 3:59 PM

linusvanpelt- clearly block by block - Union btwn 4th and 5th still has more than a few "spots" and I see a fairly regular dice game on the South side near 4th-

Posted by: David at August 18, 2005 4:13 PM

David:

Are you the guy with the House with the FAR up the Wazoo who is moving? It struck me that your part of the mid-lower Slope (15th Street between 4th and 5th, right?) seems pretty safe -- not particularly gentrified, but pretty much a family area. And I see the last comment you made referred to Union.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 4:36 PM

you pays your money and you takes your chances

Posted by: anonymousse at August 18, 2005 4:40 PM

I lived 3 buildings over from that dice game for six years, and have called the cops and 311 dozens of times when it got noisy. So its continuing existence is not because the neighbors are too PC, OK?

On the other hand, having those guys out at all hours meant I never had to worry about getting home from the subway safe.

My new block in CH is so quiet (and dark)it terrifies me. I actually wish there was more hanging-out going on.

Posted by: katy at August 18, 2005 4:44 PM

I'm not moving so it aint me - and Katy while i'm glad you called the police - Ive had others tell me that Dice games are a nice part of summer in NY - of course if he knew how many murders occur over dice games he might not have felt that way - for the same reason katy I wouldnt use a dice game as an assurance of saftey walking home from the subway

Posted by: David at August 18, 2005 4:54 PM

Very Weird. Mr. brownstoner are you editing people's posts?? I posted something earlier today but what is shown under my name is not what I posted - and it's not someone with the same screen name b/c the link with my screen names is to my website. Why do this??? I wasn't trolling, I expressed an opinion in a respectful way. Please correct me if I'm wrong. How many other comments here have been changed by the site moderators?

Posted by: dave b at August 18, 2005 4:58 PM

Oops! My mistake. You did nothing of the sort. Apologies.

Posted by: dave b at August 18, 2005 5:00 PM

Summer? That game goes on year round. Truly, the guy you spoke to was clueless.

There have been shots fired around that game, and the crossfire is certainly an issue. But those guys also watch the block, to some degree. They knew me, never messed with me, and would not (I like to think) have let anyone else mess with me. But you never know.

On my new block there is a guy with a shopping cart who comes around and (pretty ineffectually) sweeps everyone's stoop. It scares the piss out of me to hear someone in my "front yard" when I'm home alone at night, but hopefully he also fills something of a "presence" function. Hopefully.

Posted by: Katy at August 18, 2005 5:10 PM

Katy if you're anywhere near Quincy & Classon, I think it's Larry (older black guy with a beard and shopping cart) who's sweeping your stoop. He's great.

Since HPD boarded up his house and kicked him out on the street, (although they oddly let the prostitute stay in the house to ply her trade, but I digress) he parks his shopping cart in our front yard.

He does keep an eye on things. That doesn't mean he'll protect you, but he is well-meaning and quite harmless.

Posted by: clinton hillbilly at August 18, 2005 6:18 PM

So tell me, David at 4:54 p.m., how many murders occur because of dice games? Last I heard, there were 570 murders in 2004 (down from 594 in 2003) in the city of NY. Do you really think dice were a big contributor?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 7:00 PM

lol. those of you giving b'stoner sh*t for posting his floorplans - as if there's some secret entrance contained in the layout! ooo! i have a feeling b'stoner was just putting a discussion topic out there, so why get so personal? it's as if you wish a robbery/mugging on the poor guy...like big bubba would watch the hipster get beaten up. i don't care how little i like someone, i'm not going to watch them get hurt by other people. you guys are a bunch of venomous wackos. props to the people who actually had a civilized debate about it. damn.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 7:38 PM

Wow. We've been on the road all day driving a rented cargo van full of boxes down to the city from our vacation in Connecticut. It's always amazing to us how personal and emotional people get. We posted this discussion topic in what we thought was a non-confrontational way. Clearly since several other neighborhoods already have some kind of private security force, this is hardly some ground-breaking idea. Look, all we're doing is trying to create a nice home for our young family in a city where that's tough to do. To some people, we probably seem rich and overprivileged, hence the knee-jerk accusations of elitism. But everything's relative. We can assure you we are far from rich and are just pulling all of this off by the skin of our teeth. We consider one of our strengths to be being able to see and appreciate many points of view on a topic, which is why we were aware that this idea might be controversial. But as several posters have noted, what's that compared to the value of your family's safety? Anyway, we appreciate all the input, we just wish people weren't quite to quick to project their own insecurities and issues on to us. But we choose to put ourselves out there and something interesting or useful usually comes out of it, so we can roll with it.

Posted by: Brownstoner at August 18, 2005 9:23 PM

don't you think there is something arrogant about moving into an area and starting your own private security force... I mean, just on the face of it.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 9:31 PM

To waltz in there without exploring other community-based options or getting to know your neighbors? Sure. But the concept of private security is not inherently arrogant. This is exactly why we were raising the topic for discussion. We aren't suggesting we have all the answers but if you can't raise what is a perfectly reasonable idea for discussion without getting labeled an elitist, what's constructive about that?

Posted by: Brownstoner at August 18, 2005 9:57 PM

hear, hear. and GOOD night.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 10:05 PM

Brownstoner said it. Private Security is in effect in several Brooklyn neighborhoods and has been for many, many years. The companies that provide private security offer it to anyone community that wants it, and can come up with the cash.

If a neighborhood finds itself in a position where enough homeowners find that they can afford private security, and want to improve the general safety of their neighborhood - go for it.

As Ditmas Park nabes have demonstrated, the have nots and old timers who can't or choose not to pay for security (although many actually do pay for it) general LIKE having the security patrol cruising down their street, deterring potential criminals, FREE OF CHARGE. Basically, people are OK with the situation. I've never heard any comments about class, entitlement, gentrification, etc... Crime affects people of all colors.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 19, 2005 8:32 AM

Can't we all just get along? Please.

Posted by: Bill at August 19, 2005 9:47 AM

Anon at 7:38pm,

Come on now, where'd you leave your sense of humor. No, unfortunately, I would never just stand by and watch the hipster dude get biatch-slapped. Seriously, I have risked my life to help strangers. In one incident, many years ago in a much rougher South Slope, I jumped into a brawl - actually it was too one-sided to be a brawl - it was a solid beat down - about half dozen thugs were beating the crap out of a teenager (I had never seen any of them before). Have you ever seen anyone being viciously beaten - like having their head kicked and smashed into the sidewalk. That's what I'm talking about.

Anyhow, not saying I quite won that fight, but things would have been a lot uglier if I hadn't stepped in. When it ended (after the cops took forever to come break it up), the kid was able to actually stand up and brush himself off vs. the alternative scenario of being carried away in an ambulance. I think these guys were so shocked that a total strnager stepped in, that it kinda took the wind out of their sails - cause I only had a few bruises and scratches. Fortunately nobody pulled a knife or a gun.

This was a few blocks from my apt, and while I don't remember much about the incident other than a lot of pushing, punching, and name-calling, I do distinctly recall muttering as I was racing towards my potential demise, "there is no way in h*ll I am gonna let somebody get murdered practically in front of my home." Note that I was a renter at the time. You don't have to own a brownstone to be territorial and care about your nabe.

And frankly, I seriously doubt any keystone cop-for-hire would have risked their life to intervene. IMO, if neighbors can't take responsibility for security, then nobody else well.

Posted by: BigBubba at August 19, 2005 10:01 AM

Hi, I just read this thread. I live on Lefferts Place in Clinton Hill. Lefferts has a block association comprised of new and old residents- all of whom get along - it is very collegial. The same issues are raised in meetings without the vitriol I've seen on this post. Trust me, old residents who've lived on the block all their life have the same issues - and from what I understand have raised them for years.

One proposal that is being explored right now is a community watch patrol using a car that is done in conjunction with the police. I'm not sure how it will work if we do it, but the police are to meet with us to explain how it could work and be effective.

As to the posts about communicating with your neighbors - that is crucial of course. At the same time, generalizations like those on the thread that say white people won't talk to blacks are just that, generalizations. I am white, know and get along with my neighbors black and white. I've had plenty of instances of no eye contact, no response, teeth sucking or even spitting when I've said hi to black people on the blocks near my house (thankfully not my neighbors!) but I do NOT take this as meaning all black people behave that way.

I really do not think it is productive to use this blog as a means to generalize about the white or black, rich or poor, old or new residents. Everyone has an interest in a safe, diverse community and if the Lefferts Place Block Association meetings are any indication, such concerns cross race and class lines without any of the sort of backlash you see on this site.

I will talk to the next Lefferts Place Block Association meeting and see if we can get a subcommittee together to liaise with the other block associations and Clinton Hill society to see if the police of the 88th can meet with all of us and explain what they think about a community watch program and how it can help them and the community. That way, everyone can listen to the police's take on this and then discuss whether it would be helpful.

If anyone else is a member of a block association and would be interested in this, please let me know.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 19, 2005 11:31 AM

Lefferts place poster-can you post your email as well? I'd be interested in talking with you.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 19, 2005 2:46 PM

get out there yourself. it's your neighborhood. i have a key to the kid's park next to my building and I lock the gate at night if it's open. i've yelled at and kicked out a guy peeing and a couple screwing. and i'm a scrawny white guy.

you'll have right on your side. you're a homeowner and a resident. rent-a-cops are just collecting a paycheck. Caring for your neighborhood is not something you can outsource.

(and brownstoner, i like you, but honestly, you're rich. don't try to pass yourself off as "far from rich" because you're struggling to renovate a four-story brownstone while you make weekly trips to Connecticut to buy antique cast iron sinks. i mean, i'm struggling to install a dishwasher in my tiny co-op, and i make 50% more than the NYC median income.)

Posted by: ch at August 19, 2005 4:54 PM

To Ch, sorry, if Brownstoner were rich, this blog would probably be about what it's like to live at 720 or 740 Park Avenue or 820, 834, or 960 Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, rather than renovating some rowhouse in Brooklyn.

Posted by: Anon at August 19, 2005 5:07 PM

to last anon maybe in your circle of friends...the average american does not live in a 7 figure home.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 19, 2005 5:11 PM

To Anon 5:11pm, true, the average American does not live in a 7 figure home. But the average American isn't rich either. (Read ch 4:54pm when he says Brownstoner is rich.) Have a good weekend.

Posted by: Anon at August 19, 2005 5:34 PM

Don't misunderstand me, I really like living in Brooklyn, but let's face reality, if we were rich, we'd all be living in Manhattan, instead of any of the outer boroughs. I'm sure some won't admit it, but it's the truth.

Posted by: Matt at August 19, 2005 5:39 PM

Matt, I beg to differ. Not everyone is in Bklyn because they were forced to leave Manhattan. I have never had much of a desire to live in Manhattan. I have a net worth well into the seven figures and and I make over 10 times the median household income for NY. I don't know if that qualifies me as "rich", but I sure ain't poor and it sure as heck qualifies me to afford Manhattan.

I happen to like Brooklyn. And there are a lot of people buying in places like Park Slope who have similar "credentials". They too could afford Manhattan or Westchester or Connecticut or whatever. We could afford to live virtually anywhere (except for certain gazillion dollar co-ops on Park Ave). We're in Bklyn because we like the style of living and we can get more for our money. And yes, even when you have a lot of money, you still want to maximize what your hard-earned dollars get you. Some of us just think Manhattan is a big rip-off. Why live there, when you can get so much more in Bklyn!


Posted by: BigBubba at August 19, 2005 5:55 PM

I agree with BigBubba. Originally, I was priced out of Manhattan, but I've come to really love Brooklyn. I don't think I'm kidding myself, but if I won Lotto and money were no object, I'd still want to live in Brooklyn. Maybe I'd buy a bigger, nicer place here, but I honestly don't think I'd move back to Manhattan.

Posted by: Daniel at August 19, 2005 5:59 PM

whoa, that's blasphemy.

Posted by: escap at August 19, 2005 6:06 PM

Lefferts Place commenter, can you email us at brownstoner@brownstoner.com? Thanks.

Posted by: Brownstoner at August 19, 2005 6:19 PM

By the way, since the fact that we have a plasma tv seems to have become a symbol of our unending riches, let it be known that we inherited it from our boss when our company moved last. You'd never catch us dropping $5K on tv, that's for sure!

Posted by: Brownstoner at August 19, 2005 6:26 PM

Lefferts place poster-can you post your email as well? I'd be interested in talking with you.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 20, 2005 7:11 AM

Wow, you own a plasma TV??? You must be rich. I can't even afford one.

Posted by: BigBubba at August 20, 2005 10:02 AM

I am Brownstoner's AFRICAN AMERICAN neighbor and friend who was robbed. I see the diversity lasting indeed in our fantastic Clinton Hill neighborhood. We bought our house four years ago, have two young kids and don't plan on leaving any time soon. Some of my African American as well as white neighbors have lived on the block for years and have no intention of selling either. U

I love most of my neighbors and do not look at them with any suspecion except for the a few in a nearby house. They only took about $325 dollars and left behind all electronics, we believe they were junkies looking for a fix. We were not injured and isn't that what matters?


Posted by: Anonymous at August 20, 2005 11:27 AM

Hey Brownstoner's neighbor. I'm glad there was no harm done to your family or you faith in your neighborhood. As to Clinton Hills diversity I'm not so sure about that lasting. I look at Ft Greene which seems less & less diverse everyday and I see CH going the same way. The thing is diversity is a fairly recent in both formerly, predominately black nabes.

I went to Bklyn Tech in the early 80's. Then the white kids knew to be out of FG park by 4:30 or get a beat down from the project kids. I attended Pratt when they still had an Engineering dept. Most of the students never went past "Mike's Diner" unless it was to the train station. When a white boyfriend drove me home, my neighbors would move their cars so he could park directly in front of my house. They didn't want him to have to walk too far to his car, because something might happen. I was told during a block association meeting(3rd block of Lefferts Pl. btw) that people either thought he was a cop or there to buy drugs. And that he was safer if he was buying drugs, since everyone knew not to mess with the local dealer's customers.

CH seems to be going from mostly black to mostly white. Family members have sold houses on both Putnam and Grand Aves and moved back south. All sold to white owners. I think the diversity of CH is a temporary thing. I noticed you felt the need to identify yourself as "Brownstoner's African-American neighbor" at one time that would have been a given.

Posted by: Nativegal at August 20, 2005 1:39 PM

if brownstoner can afford to rent in Billyburg for the past several months while he pays a mortgage on an empty brownstone in which he's doing extensive renovations... is that stuggling? To some people, yes; to some, no. Maybe he IS stuggling to complete this expensive project but that's his choice. The point is: if he wanted to live "a nice home for [his] young family in a city where that's tough to do" (his words) he could have bought an coop/condo in Park Slope, for example. I'm serious. No drug dealers on the corner to complain about, less security issues, more responsive police force, no one dumping trash on your stoop, and could even save some money by sending kids to PS 321.

Posted by: Lane at August 20, 2005 4:08 PM

I'm glad that you were not harmed in this attack. I've been robbed and i know the sense of violation that comes along with it well. in time and with effort it gets better. the fact that you all have gotten together and discussed solutions is a sign that you will probably never have to face this again.(fingers crossed)

As to this thread, I think people are taking this all too personally. I always enjoy coming to forums because it allows you to interact with people with whom you may not be able to normally. it also allows you to ask questions that you may feel funny about asking face to face.

As to the question about people talking to their black neighbors, it was just that, a question, born of my personal experience. i don't assume that all whites are this way, else i wouldn't continue to attempt to make eye contact. i'll continue to do so until i strike gold.

it's good to know that in ch and fg it is really an integrated nabe, and not just individuals living in their own lives in houses that happen to be in the same nabe.

hopefully bed stuy will evolve into such a community, with the efforts of everyone who lives there.

Posted by: browngirl at August 20, 2005 4:13 PM

Brownstoner, you should use your new homeowner energy to work with your neighbors and your block association. If there isn't a block association, I am sure there is a neighborhood association. Your energy is like the first PTA meeting of the year where 90% of the attendees are kindergarten parents. If you don't get active now, you probably never will.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 20, 2005 4:29 PM

brownstoner's robbed neighbor here again.

what don't you all understand about clinton hill? i am black, african american, a negro, so is my husband we live in the neighborhood and don't plan on leaving. not all houses are sold to whites, in fact two in the last month have been sold to black families--my best friend is a broker who sold them! diversity remains it is both economic and racially based. believe it or not there are a lot of black families that have the means to live in a brooklyn brownstone and they didn't buy 40 years ago (the blacks who did were smarter then a lot of the current purchasers now paying well over $1M). i suggest that you all go on the next fort greene/clinton hill house tour and look at the volunteers, photos on the mantels and attendees!

i also suggest that we all open our eyes and hearts and celebrate the diversity in beautiful brooklyn.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 22, 2005 10:52 AM

To Brownstoner's robbed neighbor, i would love for you to email me, so that we could have a more indepth conversation about integration in fg, and clinton hill. please take me up on the offer!

The fact of the matter is it is a rarity in the american north to have a neighborhood that has true black and white integration. when my husband and i were considering moving out of our nabe to one that was already more integrated, we came a cross a study (i'll provide the link later) that shows that the most integrated neighborhoods are in the south and west of the country.

usually what happens is that there is a black section of town and a white section of town. i am the first to admit that here in bed stuy the "gentrification" is as much based on class as race. there are many affluent people of many cultures moving here not limited to caribbean, pakistani, bangladeshi and yemeni. that's the part that is not well publicized.

as parents of 3 children, we feel it is important for our children to know that the world is not homogenous, and to learn that we all bleed, eat, sleep, drink and love.

i commend those in fort greene and clinton hill, and there is really nothing to understand, but i think fort greene would make an interesting case study on how to achieve true integration.

for those of you who have children and live in the area, do you send your children to the public schools in the area? i sent my children to a charter school here in bed stuy, and got pretty involved as well, but the staff turnover of the school in particular was concerning to me. my daughter is enrolled at little red schoolhouse in the city, and my husband and i have been homeschooling our sons.

Posted by: browngirl at August 22, 2005 11:42 AM

I think people also overlook the fact that there are many interracial & intercultural couples here in Clinton Hill & Fort Greene. The white person walking down the street may have a partner of color. My husband is white & I am Caribbean American. We love that this area in particular has many different types of families.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 22, 2005 4:04 PM

Hear hear. The integration in FG and CH are real neighborhood assets. Not everyone moves into the neighborhood wishing it were Brooklyn Heights. Some of us welcome the diversity.

Posted by: TW at August 23, 2005 11:55 AM

here's the study i told you about:

www.uwm.edu/Dept/ETI/integration/integration.htm

Posted by: browngirl at August 23, 2005 11:56 AM

Record company EMI sign a deal with the estate of crooner Dean Martin to use the singer's likeness...

Posted by: Nikolas Matlock at December 13, 2006 10:22 AM

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