« A True Gut Renovation in Clinton Hill Monday Linkage (NY Times Edition) »

August 26, 2005

Open House Picks

house Fort Greene
402 Vanderbilt Avenue
Corcoran
Sunday 1-3pm
$1,750,000
GMAP

house Prospect Heights
331 Park Place
By Owner
Sunday 2-4pm
$1,700,000
GMAP

house Crown Heights
258 New York Avenue
Corcoran
Sunday 1-3pm
$925,000
GMAP

house Bedford Stuyvesant
186 Van Buren Street
Sotheby's
Sunday 2-4pm
$795,000
GMAP

Comments

I have friends that bought either on that block of Van Buren or next one -this year. They'll be happy to hear this price - I think they paid less than $400K (albeit a 3 story).

Posted by: Anonymous at August 26, 2005 11:35 AM

So, not knowing anything about Ft. Greene vs. Prospect Heights, a question:

All other things being equal, is a 3-story turn-of-the-century rowhouse with original details and a (very) large garden in Prospect Heights worth the same as a 4-story, ca.-1875 rowhouse with original details (garden size unknown) in Fort Greene?

Just curious...

Posted by: Halden at August 26, 2005 12:16 PM

To answer the question on the worth of properties in Prospect Heights as compared to Ft. Greene, I think the prices for all four buildings listed roughly correspond with the level of gentrification in the neighborhood. I think it’s up to the individual homebuyers to determine the worth of the gentrification/ amenities, etc. As an owner of a brownstone in Bed-Stuy, I do wish we had more commercial options like Ft. Greene, but I love my block, my commute and the relatively low price tag on our house. And…the stores and restaurants are slowly coming to our area as well(see the Lewis and Ruby's post from a couple of days ago).

Posted by: Anonymous at August 26, 2005 12:34 PM

Even though it is sight unseen - the BedStuy property is way overpriced. No way VanBuren is worth that. As a BedStuy brownstone owner (who bought just before the spike in prices), I'm for prop values increasing, but that is a little ridiculous.

Posted by: Anony at August 26, 2005 12:42 PM

Hi Halden,
I'm sure you'll get plenty of varying opinions on this question and I can't wait to read the other comments. I've owned in PH since '99 after wanting to buy in FG/CH but finding it too expensive (ha! look at the prices now). I was a little heartbroken about losing a place in FG but there's the rub: it made me MUCH more objective. So while I still miss the lovely streetscapes of FG, the amenities of PH shouldn't be underestimated. We have the park, the botanical gdns, the museum, the 2/3 or B/Q, rapidly improving shops and restaurants, and close proximity to all that Park Slope has to offer. I have to come to absolutely love the neighborliness of PH. I know many folks on my block and in the general area. No, it's not as lovely as FG but the warmth and friendliness are wonderful. The house advertised above is on one of the best blocks in the neighborhood: it's not only a very pretty block but there's also a very active and long-established block association. I've been into several of the 3-storey houses on that block of which this is one. They are somewhat narrow and lack the proportions and concomitant sense of graciousness that you get with an older, larger house. I have to say, too, that while this house may be renovated to within an inch of its life, $1.7m sounds at least $3-400,000 too much. It is, after all, only 3 storeys which means if you rent out a floor you have that much less for yourself. But the 80 ft. garden is fantastic. That's a definite bonus. In conclusion, I'd say a 4-storey -- but NOT a 3-storey -- on a good block in PH should be worth at least as much as in FG. Infact, PH seems slightly undervalued still, perhaps because FG is seen as more fashionable. So, if there's an adjustment in the RE market to come, PH might weather it better. But for this particular comparison, go for the bigger FG house. In my experience, purchase prices often fail to weight size as much as they should. I would recommend always buying the biggest space you can afford. Even if you don't have the cash to fix it all up immediately, you'll get to it eventually whereas you could easily be priced out of buying a bigger house a few years from now.

Posted by: Roz at August 26, 2005 1:01 PM

Is that address on Pk. Place correct? - map puts on almost on corner of Flatbush?

As far as comparisons of value with Ft. Greene-
vary by block - as how 'fringe' it is. Prospect Hts more valuable closest to Park Slope.
And FtGr/ClHill- has the elegant blocks and those that are less than.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 26, 2005 1:15 PM

nope it's 331. between rapidly upscaling Vanderbilt and Washington.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 26, 2005 1:21 PM

It's between Vanderbilt and Underhill. If it's between Underhill and Washington, knock off a hundred thou.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 26, 2005 1:38 PM

So what about Crown Heights versus Bed-Stuy?

Three years ago, we bought in Crown Heights after seeing a few places in BS that were a bit too rough for the price at the time (we felt). The house on NY Ave above is two short blocks from where we bought. Stuy-Heights was nice but already too pricey for us, even the fixer-uppers.
We're happy where we are. (See 'A Jewel in the Crown' in the My Brownstone section).

Posted by: Anonymous at August 26, 2005 1:55 PM

Looks like the PH house is a nice renov, but $1.7 is a bit delusional, esp for east of Vanderbilt.

Posted by: anonymous at August 26, 2005 2:02 PM

I totally agree that the Van Buren place is WAY overpriced, but that whole area of Bed Stuy is nutty -- look at Corcoran's Lofts on Dekalb. The neighborhood is still too dicey for most people, but I guess that's changing, and the transportation is too inconvenient.

Posted by: Larabelle at August 26, 2005 5:19 PM

The PH listing is 331 Park Place, NOT 161. It's between Vanderbilt and Underhill. I'm the owner, and I haven't the slightest idea how someone got that address. Feel free to ask any questions and I'll try to stay on top of the website and answer them. Or, you can call me at 917-880-2294. By the way, I'm honored to be a top pick, and before you assert that the price is too high, come see the place.

Posted by: Mara at August 26, 2005 6:58 PM

As a long-time Prospect Heights resident and a fiercely dedicated gardener, I have to say there has been NOTHING quite like having almost 90' of room to play around in. I have two children and they can have their stuff in one area, while I have all my herbs, tomatoes, cukes, eggplants, etc. in another, and there's STILL room for a table and chairs and a grill. I don't think any other neighborhood has anything deeper than a 100'lot. Maybe I'm biased, but I'd rather take the B/Q and or 2/3 than the A/C any day, and I think price is really all about location + housing quality. If the renovation is all the NYT ad says, well, who's to say PH won't soon pass the 2 million mark, since Park Slope already has? Maybe I'm just being neighborhood proud, but still...

Posted by: Urbanhound at August 26, 2005 7:12 PM

Mara! Good luck!! I hope you get the price you are asking for.... it looks like a beautiful house!
I am on Prospect between Vanderbilt and Underhill and debating on selling...

Posted by: HJC at August 26, 2005 7:26 PM

I agree that the price on the Propsect Heights home is delusional. The Fort Greene home is also insanely expensive, but it's at least an extra-wide four-story mansionesque brownstone. The Prospect Heights building is pretty, but looks more modest in its initial architecture, plus its only three floors.

Property Shark indicates that the Prospect Heights home was purchased in the fall of 2000, almost exactly 5 years ago. According to this article in New York Magazine, homes in Prospect Heights sold for between $350k-$650k in 2001.

www.newyorkmetro.com/realestate/articles/neighborhoods/prospecthts.htm

So if we somewhat conservatively estimate that this home was purchased for $500k in 2000, the seller is going to be more than tripling her investment. If you doubt the bubble, think about that. Has your salary tripled since 2000? What about your rent? The stock market? Eating out?

Just about the only thing that's tripled in price in the last five years in oil, but that's a limited resource in a politically-sensitive region controlled by a monopoly. How could that kind of increase be sustainable?

It's fair for Mara to set the price at $1.7 million (or whatever she wants, for that matter), but I worry for any buyer who finances this kind of purchase with an adjustable mortgage.

Posted by: Sloper at August 26, 2005 9:39 PM

Thinking about the Prospect Height house for $1.7 million reminded me of the new condo construction in Park Slope, where there was a 3 bedroom on Seventh Street between Third and Fourth Avenues. Listed at $1.7 million in late July.

Guess what? Not only is it still on the market a month later, but it's been knocked down to $1.3 million. That's a 25 percent reduction in a month.

Of course, that was really delusional pricing -- the Prospect Heights house seems much nicer all around. But I do think it's a good indication that reach-for-the-sky prices aren't working anymore.

Posted by: Sloper at August 26, 2005 9:57 PM

Sloper,

Far from me to say that prices in NYC aren't delusional but I think it's an oversimplification to say that a tripling of prices in one neighborhood is proof positive of the same. It's certainly possible that in the microeconomy of one neighborhood, houses can be *undervalued* as it takes a while for the popular perception to catch up with improvements in that neighborhood. And while I don't live in PH, I think that that was probably the case in 2000 -- it had been improving in amenities, safety, etc. for some time without those improvments really being priced in.

Not to say the PH house now desrves 3x as much (or whatever) -- but it's also not reasonable to say that in a rational market, prices in PH would only have kept pace with inflation and salaries. When a neighborhood becomes a better place to live (e.g., the far Upper West Side over the past few decades), it is reasonable that prices there would increase faster than the average in the city.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 26, 2005 10:29 PM

Linus, I agree that prices in certain neighborhoods often increase by much more than salaries and inflation as a neighborhood becomes "nicer," or more gentrified. In my experience, inflation-adjusted values in Park Slope increased by 5x over the decade leading up to 1987 (love that www.bls.gov inflation calculator!). So that's certainly more than the 3x inflation-adjusted increase in Prospect Heights, though over twice the amount of time.

During the slump in the late 80s/early 90s, the increase in values in the Slope dropped to about twice the inflation-adjusted initial investment. The increase didn't reach 3x the inflation-adjusted initial investment until around 1997 or 1998.

To me, it seems like a 3x increase over 20 years is much more sustainable than the same type of increase over 5 years. I know Prospect Heights is now much "nicer," but has the neighborhood really gentrified as much in 5 years as Park Slope did between the 70s and the 90s?

I'd guess values in the Slope have probably increased by 2x from 2000-05, which I suppose may be even less reasonable than the 3x increase in Prospect Height, as the Slope hasn't really shown the same type of improvements as PH during that time.

Sorry to bring it all back to the Slope, it's just my point of reference for retrospective brownstone values.

Posted by: Sloper at August 26, 2005 11:31 PM

Hi, just wanted to say that we went to that Crown Heights house today and it is in terrible condition and there is not much of a backyard to speak of. In addition the neighborhood is not very good and it is pretty far out. The pricing is VERY delusional !!!

In addition, we went to the Fort Green house a few weeks back and it was also in terrible condition, although not as bad as that one in Crown Heights and also in a much better location. In that case as well, the pricing is a little off IMHO.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 28, 2005 8:35 PM

Re: 258 New York Avenue. I was surprised by the condition of this house, considering the asking price and the location. There was a lot of shoddy renovation done over the years. It seems there was no attempt even to dress up the place, short of a perfunctory clean-up. Interior decorating aside, I can't imagine anyone buying this house and not wanting to remodel the kitchen and the bathrooms, at the very least. While it's not falling apart, there are many rough edges. Furthermore, the agent volunteered that the boiler likely needs replacing. As far as the location is concerned, this area varies greatly from block to block. This address is on the corner of an interesection where two bus routes meet. Some may see it as convenient, others as a noisy nuisance. Indeed, this is not one of the nicer stretches of the 'hood. but adjacent blocks are more appealing. The area is slow to gentrify, which may be an indication of stability. Please look at "A Jewel in the Crown" in My Brownstone to see what you can expect even just around the corner.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 29, 2005 9:06 AM

I went to the Crown Heights open house.

Is it too much to expect that a house for which you pay almost a million dollars is one that you would actually want to move into?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 29, 2005 9:25 AM

Regarding the PH house, it is funny to me how many properties in prospect heights, fort greene and clinton hill real estate is reaching the 1.7 to 1.9 million range. I compare them to similar properties in Carroll Gardens and I start to question how much the prices are really based on the neighborhoods amenities or on the momentum of the market. Just my opinion, but I think Carroll Gardens has a lot more to offer yet prices there are somewhat lower for comparable properties.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 29, 2005 9:42 AM

Did anyone go to the PH house?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 29, 2005 9:47 AM

I went to the Crown Heights open house. Since the Corcoran site did not have interior pictures of the house, I wasn't expecting much. I live a few blocks away and after seeing what you get for 925K, I thanked God we bought our house a couple of years ago. I cannot believe the prices, but I wouldn't be extremely hurt if they sold it for asking. The house on New York Avenue looks very nice from the outside and could be really nice on the inside. If I were a buyer, I'd rip down the garage in the back and make a bigger backyard. We can all balk at the idea of paying 925K for this house, but someone will buy it (maybe not at asking) and restore it back to its original layout and it will be gorgeous! I think for the size, and the fact that it is on the corner, the price could be worse. I've seen worse houses in Crown Heights and they were still asking a lot of money. Once when we wanted to buy a house elsewhere in Brooklyn, we thought there would be too much renovation to do and we thought the price was too high. We passed on it and we were sorry when we actually got out there and saw that we would have to pay that amount in general. The people who bought the house renovated it and it looks great. I still regret it.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 29, 2005 10:43 AM

268 New York Ave sold one year ago for $533,000.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 29, 2005 12:41 PM

Yeah, from all of the comments, that Crown Price house seems priced due to the momentum of the market and for no other reason.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 29, 2005 5:12 PM

I took a look at the PH house just for kicks, since I am already happy w/my home in PH. Here's thing about it: I don't know how a person prices out the work that happens underneath the floors and walls. how do you decide what it's worth to have stuff like a pump in the basement floor so it can never flood, or metal columns (I don't know what they're called) supporting the house so it will never be unstable, or speaker wire run into the dining room and upstairs? and the reno may not be to everyone's taste, but it seemed like whoever did it made the old details a little more contemporary, not as stuffy as old houses can sometimes look. Maybe 1.7 is high, maybe it's not, but i can say for sure that i don't know when I've seen a nicer job. even if i don't know if it will sell for the asking price, I thought it was "the real deal."

Posted by: silversunset at August 29, 2005 8:04 PM

Correction: re the post about the New York Avenue (open) house, the address the poster looked up is wrong: it is not 268 New York Ave., but 258 New York Ave. The house did not sell a year ago, but has been owned by the same person since 1987 (when she took out a mortgage for a little over $200,000 ). Regardless, the present price of $925,00 is way, way over value--market or otherwise. You can't blame owners for wanting to cash out in this market but considering the terrible shape of the house, the fact that very little detail remains, and the enormous reconstruction work needed, the price is way out of bounds. Don't give up on Prospect Heights, though: just keep looking!

Posted by: Anonymous at August 30, 2005 10:14 AM

Sorry, re the New York Ave. house post (below), I meant Crown Heights, of course, not Prospect Heights.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 30, 2005 10:17 AM

The fact remains: 268 New York Ave sold one year ago for $533,000. The house is four houses away from #258.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 30, 2005 10:23 AM

To 8/29 9.42am Anonymous posting about Carroll Gardens... I lived in Carroll Gardens for a couple of years before moving to Ft. Greene (now in Clinton Hill) about 4 years ago. I love Carroll Gardens and it does have amenities. However, Ft. Greene and Clinton Hill have much more consistent, grand and interesting architecture, as well as amenities and Ft. Greene Park. The housing stock is just better in terms of details and preserved facades of buildings, so I think that accounts for part of the rise in prices over some Carroll Gardens listings. Plus, almost all of Ft. Greene and Clinton Hill are landmared, not just a few blocks here and there like Carroll Gardens. That being said, I love C. Gardens, but maybe that accounts for some of the rising prices too that you are observing. Also, I have to say that I've seen plenty of C. Gardens listings that are higher than F. Greene and C. Hill...

Posted by: Anonymous at August 30, 2005 12:41 PM

Does anyone know what the price range is to reside a wood frame house with clapboard?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2005 8:25 PM

Does anyone know what the price range is to reside a wood frame house with clapboard?

Posted by: Anonymous at August 31, 2005 8:25 PM

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August 26, 2005

Open House Picks

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