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August 15, 2005

Guest Post: Desecration in the Slope

bergen
We're on vacation this week and frankly don't plan on logging a whole lot of hours in front of the computer. So we were happy to see this ready-to-run post show up in our mailbox yesterday. Anyone else is welcome to submit this week, too. Pictures preferred.

To make a long story short...On a beautiful Park Slope brownstone block, the city owned a house: 384 Bergen, between Fourth and Fifth Avenues. It apparently had been taken for back taxes owed, the city then gave it to a “community development” group, the 5th Avenue Committee, to renovate for housing. This took many years. Now the “renovation” is complete, and the building sits empty, collecting garbage. It was developed using typical city housing projects specifications: it appears to have been stripped of details inside, the entry is aluminum sash, corridors have fluorescent 2x2 lighting fixtures, bright yellow high intensity “parking lot style” fixtures in back. What is the future of this building? Will the future residents have an interest in its context? What will it take to get public agencies to be more sensitive, or at least: first do no harm?

Comments

How dare you question the Fifth Avenue Committee! Classist! Racist! Sexist! Homophobe! I demand to know where you live so we can picket you!

Seriously, I'd be curious to know how the city decides to give a house to a community group as opposed to auctioning it. (As with the recent Park Slope house oon My Brownstoner.) I wonder if it would be better for all concerned to sell a place like this at top market value and then apply to profits toward affordable housinng somehow.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 15, 2005 9:44 AM

IMO, the Fifth Avenue Committee is a joke. I tried contacting them several times about volunteer work, but never got a return call. Zero level of interest in free help from a guy who is a finance professional, a LL, a successful r.e. investor, and a Park Slope resident. That tells me that this is probably one of these groups primarily interested in perpetuating its own completely insular existence, rather than carrying out it's grassroots community mission.

So, I'm not surprised that such a valuable asset under their ownership is basically just sitting there empty. Why should they be in any rush to get affordable housing in productive use.

Okay, to be fair, it is certainly possible that they are waiting on a C-O or other such paperwork.

Posted by: BigBubba at August 15, 2005 10:22 AM

Does anyone know an effective way to stop the littering of circulars and other marketing materials on their property? 311, the NYPD, and the Sanitation Department don't really give a flying, ahem...

Also, someone told me I could hang an ugly-ass sign outside my house reading "Post no materials", but 1) I'm not going to compromise the look of my house with such a sign, and 2) the immigrants who deliver this stuff by the truckload don't/can't read english and just ignore it.

"I hate the newsday marketeer":
http://antimarketeer.blogspot.com

Posted by: me again at August 15, 2005 10:55 AM

Ah the litter - that little touch that seems to keep Park Slope authentic!
And lets hope to preserve the "diversity" the 5th Ave Committee rents the building to a halfway house for violent felons or homeless shelter for the truly mentally ill!

Posted by: David at August 15, 2005 11:15 AM

Regarding the circulars, it's my understanding that a section of Brooklyn Heights has successfully prohibited the distribution of these. If you put circulars on doorsteps or cars you can get a fine. (or at least this is what I was told) Anyone know what the story is with this or how it happened?

Posted by: Ben at August 15, 2005 12:31 PM

Excuse my sense of humor failure, but the Fifth Avenue Committee has been creating and preserving affordable housing for many many years. Big Bubba: if you're serious about volunteering, walk in the door of their offices and get to know the people there -- before you slag them off for not bowing and scraping in deference to your gracious and apparently over-qualified offer of charity. Come on, guys, I love this site and all, but for a bunch of (mostly) middle class property owners to rag on a group that has done so much to stop the displacement of working class people of color is mean-spirited, smug and short sighted.

Posted by: Roz at August 15, 2005 1:12 PM

Do city-owned houses get ticketed for trash!!!! Also, I got 27 grocery store circulars dumped on my sidewalk last week (from the same store, and this was right after I got a ticket because of my neighbor's garbage). I called the store and spoke to the manager about the potential of getting a ticket because of these dumped circulars and he was very nice and apologetic. I've seen signs reading "no flyers," but I'm sure people don't care. It's bad enough, but the distributors assume there are four families in our house, so we get four bags of flyers at once.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 15, 2005 1:32 PM

Gotta second Anon's defense of the FAC. Great, well-respected, organization with multi-faceted programs for our community.

Don't know anything at all about the Bergen St. property or it's future, but I do know that the majority of felons eligible for halfway houses are not in fact violent, and that housing for homeless and/or mentally ill people should not be dumped in the deep ghetto.

I just popped on here looking for some renovation info, and instead found a buncha NIMBY crap. Yuck.

Posted by: Peeper at August 15, 2005 3:13 PM

since everyone knows this is a F.A.C. house, why not call them up & ask them to clean up the front? God knows it only takes a weekend for the front of a building to get all covered with blowing flyers and what not.

Doesn't anyone from the FAC lurk in here?

Posted by: will at August 15, 2005 3:26 PM

I agree with the sentiments of Anon and Peeper...

I'm not sure why the 5th Avenue Committee is a "community development" group, rather than a community development group.

The Fifth Avenue Committee has been active for 30 years, and built those god-awful houses between 4th and 5th avenues, near Baltic. God-awful, but important affordable housing for the community and much better than the empty lots that were sitting there after the city knocked down the old houses to build a school, and then cancelled the plans.

Anyway, until 10 years ago, if not more recently, much of 5th Ave was lower-income and pretty run-down. Especially that block, actually -- Bergen between 4th and 5th was crack central through the early 90s. Fifth Ave's just the kind of neighborhood that typically has a community development group pushing for affordable housing, and affordable housing isn't always able to include preservation of architectual detail.

While I wouldn't want every house in the Slope to have this sort of renovation, you have to understand the context of this section of the neighborhood. Affordable housing is a top priority for (pre-gentrification) community groups, and the "city-project-specifications" may have been required at the time the project was planned, due to violence in the area. A lot of the stores down there used to have bullet-proof glass protecting the cashier, etc.

[All that said, I don't know anything about this house, nor about whether the FAC is well-run, etc. Just saying, it's not unreasonable for them to exist and advocate for affordable housing, etc...]

Posted by: Sloper at August 15, 2005 3:32 PM

As to the idea of whether it wouldn't be better to sell the house at top-dollar and then use the proceeds to finance affordable housing...

I think the city has been pursuing a plan of dispersed subsidized/affordable housing, rather than building large concentrations of low-income housing all in one place (like the Fort Greene projects, etc). Sometimes, they sell buildings like this to community groups for below-market prices, other times they get developers to include a certain percentage of low-income apts in exchange for zoning/tax breaks.

I personally think the dispersed strategy is better. Concentrated areas of poverty aren't good for the people who live there (increased crime, worse school systems, etc), and I think it's good for both the poor and non-poor to be exposed to each other and live as neighbors every once and awhile.

Posted by: Sloper at August 15, 2005 3:48 PM

Hey, maybe I jumped the gun on FAC. Sorry, but I think it's pretty offensive to not return emails and phone calls - and they are the ones who solicit for volunteers in their ads and annual report. So, that gave me the impression that they were one of those orgs that exists to essentially leach off taxpayers, while only providing nominal lip service to the community mission. I have had no interaction with FAC because they are not approachable - its not for lack of trying. And no, I am not going to bother to walk into their office, if they can't be bothered returning my call/email. Gimme a break.

I am very interested in issues of affordable housing in my community. And forgive me if I am interested in learning more about what they do as well as happen to think I have something I can offer them - even if its simply participating in the literacy and job programs they profess to need volunteers for.

But, despite the offense, I agree, I shouldn't have made certain assumptions and I don't doubt they've done a lot of good for the community in the past. I am going to try contacting them again (it's been a year since the last attempt). And I'll let you know how it goes.

Posted by: BigBubba at August 15, 2005 4:14 PM

I find it weird how people talk about all the good work done by FAC "years ago" and then in the same breath speak of how bad ("crack central") the neighborhood used to be back then. 20 yrs ago (and more) 5th Avenue was a crime infested, drug infested place, like dozens of other neighborhoods that didnt have a FAC- and after a decade plus of falling crime rates, 5th avenue, and those other (no FAC) neighborhoods are now more attractive and liveable. I fail to see what great things were done by FAC. Yes they managed to get funding for some housing, but frankly back then the issue wasnt affordability it was safety(since it was unsafe it was pretty affordable).

Posted by: David at August 15, 2005 6:03 PM

one more comment about why the city transfers to a nonprofit instead of auctioning off at top dollar--i think that if you transfer the building to a non-profit group, you can require the organization to use the property as affordable housing. if you auction off at top-dollar to a for-profit developer, you're not in a position to require the developer to house low-income tenants in perpetuity. some of the city's policies around these issues are (as sloper says) products of a different time, when neighborhoods like this one were not desirable and you really couldn't get the private sector to invest because there was nothing in it for them--and, granted, times have changed, and maybe now the money from auctioning could help to buy or build more property, but there isn't much land to build on and there aren't many buildings to buy.

also: FAC does and has done a lot of good work. it's true that 20 years ago the neighborhood might have needed more gentrifying--that is, better housing conditions, more economic development, lower crime--and, now, FAC has an anti-displacement zone and is fighting the gentrification that is in some way the fruits of its labor. this happens: neighborhoods change. no simple solution.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 15, 2005 6:24 PM

"...frankly back then the issue wasn't affordability it was safety (since it was unsafe it was pretty affordable)."

I'd have to disagree with that. Affordability is always an issue for people who are scraping to get by, and in the 70s and 80s, rents throughout the Slope were going up due to the gentrification of the center Slope. The neighborhood was just getting more popular and so rents were increasing, and in addition, rent control buildings and SROs were being converted to two-family houses.

For example, we rented one floor of a brownstone for $300 in 1984. A few years later, we rented a different floor for around $700. Though it sounds low to us now, the rent more than doubled. These sort of increases made it increasingly difficult for long-time residents to stay in the area. I'm sure Fifth Ave near Baltic also felt these pressures, as despite the crack and the violence, it was still safer than many other crack-affected neighborhoods.

[A bit of an aside... most Brooklyn neighborhoods were affected by crack back then. There was a crack house on Carroll Street between 8th and the park, which was one of the fanciest blocks and prime real estate. It was just a question of the extent of the crack. So when I say Bergen and 5th was "crack central", that's doesn't mean there weren't crack houses in the rest of Park Slope, nor that there weren't worse crack areas in the rest of Brooklyn. Just that for the Slope, that street had the worst crack activities. And I'm so happy that drug's not popular anymore...]

Posted by: Sloper at August 15, 2005 7:24 PM

being "affected by crack" is not the same as being overrun with crack, or other drugs, violent crime and horrible quality of life - which no amount of sentiment is going to erase from the history of lower (5th Ave) Park Slope - and it is EXACTLY things like FACs "no displacement zone" that causes me to scoff at their real agenda and results. It is truly sad that the small property owners (often relatively poor) who have struggled to keep their properties through years where this neighbohood was teetering on the brink (and many property owners simply walked away) are now forced to answer to an unelected bunch of activists who dont have to pay the skyrocketing costs of fuel, taxes, sanitation, insurance etc... No matter that they may want to "displace" indivduals who may think rent is optional, neighbors be dammed or even screw the law. Why shouldnt these property owners be permitted to decide who lives (often with them) in their buildings. And sorry gentrification has nothing to do with FAC, it is simply a product of rising housing prices in established areas and lower crime rates allowing other neighborhoods to become more desirable.

Posted by: David at August 15, 2005 8:42 PM

I think there's a larger debate going on here -- I had not heard about the "no displacement zone" campaign, and I agree with what I think David is saying... it seems like it punishes homeowners who have stuck with the neighborhood for many years. For more info:

www.fifthave.org/Organizing/DFZProgram.htm

As I mentioned in a previous post on this topic, my family doubled the rent on the apt in our brownstone in the 80s, contributing to gentrification and housing pressures, etc. I'm clearly not opposed to the right of landlords to raise the rent.

Back to the initial post by Brownstoner, it seems like a much better idea to allow the city to auction off brownstones like the one at 384 Bergen to community groups for affordable housing (even with a crummy renovation), then to allow the problem to get so bad that tenants organize and fight rent increases. As to why FAC is pursuing both strategies, I dunno.

I don't know much about FAC, as I said earlier. I just support the idea of abandoned brownstones sometimes being turned into affordable housing, even if it's aesthetically disappointing.

Posted by: Sloper at August 15, 2005 9:08 PM

What worse use could you make of public funds then by subsidizing luxury housing for people? There are plenty of cheaper places to live.

I'd much rather auction this off and either return the money to the taxpayers or get some more teachers.

If you think of the net results of these groups, they keep themselves and their buddies in below market rate housing at a considerable cost to other renters and the taxpayer. The average poor person doesn't benefit at all from this. It actually costs them quite a bit and it becomes harder and harder for landlords to bring housing to the market.

Posted by: JoshK at August 15, 2005 11:27 PM

Sloper, re the dispersed strategy of affordable housing: my concern is that by turning a pretty valuable brownstone into affordable housing, you are providing a windfall for a few lucky tenants who get to live there. But by selling the place and using the proceeds toward affordable-housing goals -- be it building housing, providing rent subsidies, or whatever else -- you could help more people, albeit not as extravagantly. (I guess one advantage to selling to FAC is ensuring that the rentals in this one building stay affordable, but only so many people can live there.)

I can see the value, ideally, of enabling lower-income people to live in places like Park Slope, so the classes aren't totally insulated from one another. But in terms of unrealized cash, this seems an awfully expensive way of doing it. Is it worth it, when the cost is helping a few tenants to live in an expensive neighborhood instead of helping more (albeit in a cheaper location)?

Even within Park Slope I would think there would be ways of spreading the money more efficiently so that more needy tenants could be helped. But I don't claim to be an expert.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 16, 2005 8:47 AM

The Fifth AVenue Commitee is a bunch of thugs under the guise of a community development oganization.

They have made life miserable for small (3-family) building owners. Over the past few years they have picketed and attempted to strong-arm folks who have made an investment in themselves and the neighborhood, sometimes at considerable cost (depending on the year of the bubble) to improve and live in a building. Then because they need to raise the rent to cover more of their costs, the FAC shows up to "shame" them into subsidizing (that's the city's job) the living arrangements of people, who for better of for worse are unabale to manage their own financial lives (blame BUsh and the Republikudniks for eliminating subsidies). If it's rent control or even stabilization, that's one thing, and the new owner should have done their due dilligence. But when the controls don't exist, it should not be the "problem" of the LL to manage or mitigate the financial and dwelling well being of individuals that can't afford a market rate rent. Rents have been steadily going down for christ's sake.

Let the FAC step in and subsidize the difference if that is their concern, but to blame the party that is in fact improving the neighborhood by better managing a once dillapidated property is nothing but offensive. There is nothing that says a private landlord should be responsible for paying some or a really large part of someone else's freight. If you can't afford to live somewhere, then maybe it's time to move somewhere else. Diversity in the community is just some BS excuse to extract concessions from the "haves" to the "have-nots". That line of thinking has done wonders for our school system. And shit, haven't you seen the articles about even illegal aliens getting mortgages these days. All you need is a pulse and someone will loan you money. If you can't afford it here, then do it somewhere else. Hemogeny isn't so bad if the crime rate comes down and property values go up.

Welcome to the United States of Whatever.

Posted by: Asleep at the wheel at August 16, 2005 9:05 AM

The "displacement-free zone" has been a big part of the FAC's program for years, and it's responsible for much of the ill will toward the group. And rightfully so. They act as if it is uniquely immoral to make money by renting property. If people can command the highest price they can get for a watch or a loaf of bread or a gallon of gas, fine. But if people try to do that with property -- they must be stopped!

If society has an obligation to house the poor, then society should share that burden. But it is obnoxious and patently unfair to expect affordable housing to come out of the pockets of one group, landlords, who should not be allowed to make a greater profit than the FAC deems moral. (And not even all landlords, mind you: if you can afford a building above 6th Avenue, you've got the FAC's blessing to charge out the wazoo.)

Basically, the FAC takes one group and says: We've drafted you to pay for the solution to the affordable housing crisis. If your neighborhood improves so that you could get more for your apartment, forget about taking the profit: you're going to donate it to your tenants. That's where they lose the support of this otherwise fairly bleeding-heart Park Sloper.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 16, 2005 9:26 AM

By the way, in fairness, the FAC does say that they give priority to fighting rent increases by absentee landlords rather than neighborhood residents. I don't know if that's true in practice but their website says that.

I'm not sure that makes it any better: to me it's the height of smugness to appoint yourself to decide who has the moral right to charge market rent and who doesn't.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 16, 2005 9:30 AM

Linus, you raise a good point -- maybe selling at market rate could allow more families to be housed elsewhere. I just think it's a complicated situation (more families housed in old-style projects probably not worth it, while more families housed in Nememiah0-type construction probably a good idea), and I think there was a certain arrogance in the original posting on this topic that didn't recognize the complicated history of this type of housing. As if, how dare the city sell this architectual gem to poor people who destroy its beauty, without recognizing the backstory of this section of the Slope. Also, if the building was sold to FAC a number of years ago, it might not have been worth enough at market rate (maybe $400k in the late 90s) to build much additional housing elsewhere.

Anyway, complicated subject with few easy or good solutions, as the discussion of FAC's no displacement zone clearly shows.

Posted by: Sloper at August 16, 2005 10:00 AM

Good point that the sale may have been several years ago. Anyway, regardless whether the money could have been better spent, better that the FAC's become landlords themselves (here and the other places they've bought/built) than essentially shaking down other landlords.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at August 16, 2005 10:09 AM

yikes! it might be good to step back a little. this is ONE building in a city of many. the vast majority of subsidized housing units (and, also, affordable housing units, with or without subsidy) are located in the south bronx, central brooklyn, and harlem. the reason this building ended up in city ownership is, most likely, that (many years ago) its owner didn't pay taxes and effectively abandoned it because he or she felt that it was worthless--this may have happened occasionally in park slope, but in parts of those poorer neighborhoods entire blocks were vacant and/or burned.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 16, 2005 10:18 AM

As Will commented, why not give Fifth Avenue Committee a phone call, asking them to clean the front of the building?

Posted by: DN at August 16, 2005 10:37 AM

Not every neighborhood in Brooklyn turned into a drug/crime/prostitution infested ghetto from 1950 -1990. Many neighborhoods sustained themselves during that time period

Do you think the ORIGINAL upper-class residents of Park Slope (1880-1950) formed their own anti-displacement committee when the lower-class started moving in?

Park Slope's current population is more reflective of the original residents. In Park Slope’s heyday it was a thriving upper and middle class community.

The people who moved in the area from 1950 to 1990 were not the original community, neither were the lesbians.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 16, 2005 11:15 AM

IMHO if the city would stop with these programs and instead loosen zoning so people could build up we'd have a lot more affordable housing - and it would benefit everyone, not just the few luck people who get it.

This FAC thing is just the most glaring example of bad policy in action.

Posted by: JoshK at August 16, 2005 11:33 AM

As a community resident who's interested in affordable housing, I too was curious about this property. I had heard awhile ago that the building would be renovated and sold as an affordable homeownership opportunity to someone from the community. When I called FAC to find out the status of the building, they informed me that they are waiting for a Certificate of Occupancy from the NYC Department of Buildings (as the earlier posted speculated) and will use FAC's notification list to inform people of the price and application process and then hold an impartial lottery to sell the building. Also, they told me that anyone can be added to FAC's notification list by dropping by and signing up in person.

Hope this is helpful.

Posted by: community resident at August 16, 2005 12:34 PM

Does the NYC government actually demand that historic details in an older building must be stripped in order to comply with its affordable housing rules? Seems odd to me.

Posted by: Daniel at August 16, 2005 3:46 PM

I strongly disagree with the title of this article - the much-needed rehabilitation of a property on bergen street is hardly "desecration." In fact, it's a dramatic improvement over the previous state of the building.

I'm a former employee of the City's department of housing - I can tell you that they do strictly limit the "extras" in any project on former City land - including, sadly, fancy lighting abd historical fixtures. If you take issue with this, I suggest you contact HPD or your elected officials instead of picking on a CDC that's trying to develop affordable housing for people who have lived in Park Slope their entire lives.

Posted by: second street at August 16, 2005 6:35 PM

Not to wear this theme out too much, but how is anyone creating affordable housing? Any program like this is going to make it affordable only for the person who gets it. For everyone else it makes the market more expensive. If the City would just sell it off, then it would add a little more housing to the market and whoever wants it most and can afford it would get it.

Posted by: JoshK at August 16, 2005 9:48 PM

And also, why are people so hell bent on social engineering a neighborhood? Why should any group of people get singled out for preferential treatment?

Posted by: JoshK at August 16, 2005 10:03 PM

joshk, i think you answered your own question. FAC has renovated this building and now there will be 3 apartments that will be affordable for low-income community members. Under the scenario you suggest, the market is free to determine the price and as we all know, it would be well above the level that many existing families could afford. Granted, 3 apartments won't solve the housing crisis in NYC, but it's more than zero. Simply letting the market determine "who can afford to have it" shuts out all community members who earn well below the area median income. In fact, I'd bet it would shut out most community members at all.

Posted by: second street at August 17, 2005 9:58 AM

Who are these community members? How do you cut off the boundaries of this community? This is a state giveaway to a group of people, however you define it. It's a lot more fair to let everyone have a chance to buy it.

And yes, bad policy one time doesn't make a major dent in the market, but bad policy a thousand times over destroys it and makes all housing unaffordable (witness NYC).

The city now has $1-$2 mil in assets that should be handled wisely. Considering our staggering amount of debt, it should be sold for the most money. Giving a multi-million dollar gift to a few random people comes at the expense of all other taxpayers - and there is no rational reason for this, besides the fact that these "community" residents want it.

Posted by: JoshK at August 17, 2005 12:31 PM

JoshK,

You make too much sense.
Stop before someone sics the "blowhard" police on you.

laissez faire,
iceberg

Posted by: iceberg at August 17, 2005 12:46 PM

I just don't get why, with so many financial needs here, do people push these far-left agendas to provide discounted luxury housing? NYC just got a bond downgrade because our city council is such a bunch of rejects and cannot stop spending.

Posted by: JoshK at August 17, 2005 12:53 PM

Why???? Because the average person doest have the foggiest idea about economics. And the average councilperson is actually even more clueless than the average voter....Price controls=shortages - very simple concept, proven over and over again yet average voters thinks rent controls help, when in fact they help a lucky few at the expense of many. Everyone understands the need to help those disadvantaged but the Govt should be helping them directly rather than mucking up the marketplace as NYC has done for generations. The fact that quasi-private groupd like FAC try to institute price controls through what amounts to intimidation and obstruction ought to be illegal.

Posted by: David at August 17, 2005 1:41 PM

It was upsetting to read that NYC housing regs call for the destruction of historic details when renovating for the purposes of affordable housing. Who should we contact in city gov't to put in our two cents that these rules be abolished? Once the architectural details are stripped, it becomes so expensive to try to reconstruct or replicate them. After all, even the name of this blog is Brownstoner, so let's try to preserve them. These old buildings look so much nicer than most new construction going up in Brooklyn.

Posted by: Alex at August 17, 2005 2:03 PM

NYC housing regs to do not call for historic details to be destroyed, but they do call for costs to be kept down to save you, the taxpayer, money. restoration, as we all know, can be quite expensive.

so either:
you're building luxury apartments for poor people--the injustice!
OR
you're cutting costs on park slope homes and ruining their architectural heritage--the injustice!

it's hard to win.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 17, 2005 4:06 PM

To clarify a couple of things. 1) The City disposes of many, if not most, foreclosed properties through an auction process to the highest bidder (check DCAS website). 2) The vast majority of City-owned properties going to non-profits for nominal fees are located in distressed or semi-distressed communities (ex. E. New York). 3) The policy of turning over City property in this way has proven to be an effective way to remove government from its inefficient role as landlord (the City now owns around 8,000 foreclosed properties from around 100,000 in 1990), revitalize ailing neighborhoods that need an infusion of people and rehabilitated buildings (ie. areas the market wouldn't touch - think Columbia St in the late 1980s, early 90s), and help address housing needs for low income New Yorkers, who by the way, also fill thousands of low paying jobs that help NY thrive.

All of which is to say the Slope property is an anomaly and shouldn't be used to diss City policy as a whole. Agreed, from a pure dollar and cents perspective, this may not be the best use of taxpayer cash, but perhaps the costs of concentrating poverty may be just as great in the long run.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 17, 2005 5:26 PM

The City has ruined most of these properties by building housing projects, rent controls, and anti-growth regulation. Throw into this the highest tax rate in the country and surprisingly, you have ruined neighborhoods, crime, and the downwards spiral. Then, the city auctions off the debris. That doesn't sound like a very smart system to me.

I know many older people who used to live on the UWS or in the Bronx and felt chased out as they wanted better housing ans safer nabes, which was best available outside of NYC's grasp.

And, I don't think you can ever say "dollars and cents aside". Unless you want to write the check yourself.

Posted by: JoshK at August 17, 2005 11:46 PM

And two other things.

1. I don't think that anyone objects to a tax forclosure. That's one of the few things that NYC does that other cities do too.

2. Columbia is a great example of how the city's laws have been an obstacle to improving the nabe for years. In no other city is it so hard to buy buildings, tear them down, and put up something nicer. Here Columbia has to fight for years to get something done.

Posted by: JoshK at August 17, 2005 11:48 PM

To Anonymous, August 17, 4:06pm, according to the post by Second Street, August 16, 6:35pm: "I'm a former employee of the City's department of housing - I can tell you that they do strictly limit the "extras" in any project on former City land - including, sadly, fancy lighting abd historical fixtures." Your posts cannot both be correct on this topic, but I don't know who is accurate.

Posted by: Alex at August 18, 2005 11:45 AM

if you think that all policy decisions should be made based on economics, it is indeed about the dollars and cents. but another school of thought might be that it's important to provide a safety net for the poor, even if it costs additional money, and that we as a society will reap long-term benefits by providing for the poor--housing as well as education, child care, job training, food stamps, etc.--and trying not to segregate the poor in urban ghettos.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 12:40 PM

i'm anonymous at 4:06--i didn't mean so much to contradict second street as to say that "limiting extras" and "calling for the destruction of details" were different things. but, even so, the decision is made for finacial reasons and so that buildings renovated with city money are not luxury homes.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 18, 2005 12:45 PM

O.K. :-)

Posted by: Alex at August 18, 2005 1:17 PM

There's a big difference between providing for the poor and providing luxury housing for the poor. There are so many areas in this country where you can live for a fraction of NYC prices. If there was no other option, that's one thing, but when middle class people live NYC all the time b/c it's too expensive, why on earth would we subsidize anyone here? (Forget the fact that the beneficiaries of these programs happen to have no real income correlation - they are more like lottery winners).

And, buy creating gvt housing programs, we are doing exactly what you don't want to do - concentrating poverty. That's why Chicago finally started tearing down projects. They found out that it didn't work.

Lastly, if you really want to care for the poor, then investments in education and crime prevention pay off the best. Building housing for them in prime nabes is the biggest waste - and yes, cops, prisons, and schools all take money. So, unless you have an infinite supply of these dollars and cents, you are stuck working with them.

Posted by: JoshK at August 18, 2005 1:49 PM

OH NO GARBAGE IN PARK SLOPE SOMEONE CALL THE YUPPIE POLICE!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous at August 19, 2005 3:27 AM

I guess Anon 3:27am likes the look of garbage on public streets. Go figure.

Posted by: DN at August 19, 2005 9:50 AM

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