« House of the Day: Crown Heights Original South of Division Street: Part 4 »
July 28, 2005
Boerum Hill Open House Tonight
If you've got nothing better to do tonight, you can stop by the open house at 447 Pacific Street in Boerum Hill from 6 to 7:30. There's not much in the way of pictures to go on, so we can't do much more than parrot the listing: Traditional lower duplex with grape leaf moldings, pocket doors, and marble mantles, all in a two bedroom unit with an open kitchen, washer & dryer, and private land-scaped garden topped by a more modern upper duplex with cathedral ceilinged living room, newly redone kitchen, a large skylight, wood burning fireplace, 2 bedrooms plus a den or home office. Price? $1.7 million.
447 Pacific Street [NYT Listings] GMAP
Comments
by the way, did anyone hear about this shooting in boerum hill earlier this week? i just stumbled across this on ny1.com:
Newborn Born To Mother Killed By Stray Bullet Clings To Life
July 24, 2005
As police search for a killer, the tiny newborn reportedly delivered by emergency C-section after his mother was hit by a stray bullet in Brooklyn Saturday is clinging to life.
Published reports say the 2-pound baby was delivered 10 weeks premature at Long Island College hospital moments after his mother died.
Nicole Sutton, 33, was sitting outside her home on Wyckoff Street in Boerum Hill to escape the heat when she was shot in the neck just before 1 a.m. Saturday.
Police say Sutton was just an innocent bystander and was not the intended target.
Sutton was sitting with a group of people, including the baby's
father, when the shooting occurred.
Police are looking for the shooter.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 28, 2005 1:35 PM
Gosh anonymous, a cynical person might wonder why you chose to link that story to this open house listing
Posted by: Anonymous at July 28, 2005 1:53 PM
Yep, I heard about it, very sad. A good friend lives in Boerum Hill and my brother cat-sits there frequently. He has heard gun-battles from the Wyckoff Houses on numerous occassions (and has called the police of course). Has anyone read Jonathan Lethem's book on growing up in Boerum Hill? It's a beautiful neighborhood, but the Wyckoff Houses have not changed at all since the 1970s.
As to posting that story here, it seems pertinent to me. $1.7m is a lot of money to spend to live around the corner from gun-fights.
Btw, the three-story brick house I know of in Boerum Hill went for $200k in 1991. Just a fun fact...
Posted by: Sloper at July 28, 2005 1:58 PM
$1.7 is lot of money to spend anywhere.
But Pacific St isnt jopust around the corner - and there
are $2m+ houses in Cobble Hill that are about as close to Gowanus projects as this house is to Wyckoff Gardens.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 28, 2005 2:06 PM
I'm anon who posted the story. No cynicism intended at all. I actually really like Boerum Hill a lot. Don't live around there but love strolling through when I'm in the area. I really just posted it because I was surprised nobody had mentioned it, and that I hadn't heard or read anything else about it.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 28, 2005 2:20 PM
I lived on Wyckoff between Bond/Nevins for 7 years (less than a block from where the woman was shot) and quite literally never had a problem-- block is all brownstones but in between two sections of the Wyckoff Houses (they end at Bond and at Nevins). That said, I used to hear gunshots every now and again.
It is notable (and sad) that most of the gun violence around the Gowanus and Wyckoff Houses takes place within the housing areas. Even though that still doesn't make for a very safe surrounding area, that does separate the "inside" from the "outside."
THAT said, Pacific Street is three blocks north of here. What difference does the shooting on Wyckoff make?!?
Posted by: c at July 28, 2005 2:30 PM
Wycoff Projects aren't really a part of Boerum Hill. Gowanas "Housing" is more part of the neighorbood and are generally a tamer. They don't "accidently" shoot pregnant ladies as much.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 28, 2005 4:19 PM
If the Wyckoff projects (between Nevins and 3rd, Warren and Baltic) aren't part of Boerum Hill, what neighborhood is that area called? Because if they're not in Boerum Hill, but the Gowanus projects (between Hoyt and Bond, Douglas and Wyckoff) are, then the house on Pacific Street -- which is closer to the Wyckoff projects than the Gowanus projects -- isn't in Boerum Hill either.
Better tell the broker this house is in whatever neighborhood we call the neighborhood with the "bad" projects.
In all seriousness, the friends I know who live in Boerum Hill have never had a problem. But you can't pretend like the $1.7 million house is in a different neighborhood entirely -- it's three short, not up-the-slope-long, blocks from where the woman got shot this weekend.
Posted by: Sloper at July 28, 2005 4:55 PM
I think it depends on what map you look at. We always have called it Boerum Hill and that seems to be the accepted wisdom, but I have seen it referred to as Park Slope... but if you asked anyone in Park Slope whether any of Wyckoff Street (which becomes St. Marks Place at... 3rd Ave?), I'm sure they'd deny it (and maybe even turn up their noses, ha!).
I don't think the house is reasonably priced, buy I don't think any house with only two bathrooms in ANY neighborhood (Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, wherever) where you might fear sending your kids to the public schools is worth $1.7 million. But hey, maybe I'm completely missing something.
Besides, we couldn't afford this if we sold some of our internal organs.
And I wasn't saying it's in a different neighborhood entirely... but I know from living on Wyckoff that living on another block (say, particularly bucolic and seemingly fancy Bergen Street, one block over?) can be an entirely different world.
Posted by: c at July 28, 2005 5:37 PM
And I'd like to say that I moved from close-to- the-Wyckoff-Houses to close-to-the-Gowanus-Houses (VERY close) and I'm not convinced there's a marked difference in crime rates, character or safety.
Posted by: c at July 28, 2005 5:39 PM
Sloper,
Projects, like any undesirable areas, are for real estate sales purposes not part of any neighborhood. They are independent entities, like Vatican City within Rome.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at July 28, 2005 5:51 PM
Forgive me, but... says who?
Posted by: c at July 28, 2005 5:53 PM
c,I was actually replying to the commenter at 4:19, who said that the Wyckoff houses were worse than the Gowanus houses, and that the Wyckoff houses weren't really part of the neighborhood. I wasn't sure what the exact boundaries were either, but I found this on the web:
"Most residents are not even aware of the true boundaries of their neighborhood. Boerum Hill begins at Court Street, running east to Fourth Avenue. To the north and south, Schermerhorn Street and Warren Street."
As to Bergen Street being an different world, well, yeah, sort of, in terms of who can afford to live there. But things like stray bullets and people looking for drugs or someone to mug, that sort of stuff crosses the street pretty easily.
I admit, though, I've never lived in Boerum Hill, so I really only speak from a general knowledge having grown up in South Brooklyn.
Posted by: Sloper at July 28, 2005 5:55 PM
"They are independent entities, like Vatican City within Rome."
Right... those Vatican bullets are really something, aren't they.
I don't know if you're joking or not, but that's the kind of attitude that really gets to me. First of all, it's enormously rude to the residents of the Wyckoff and Gowanus houses, many of whom have probably lived there for 30 years. Boerum Hill is most certainly their neighborhood. Second, it's idiotic, because the crime-levels associated with the more dangerous projects do spill into the nearby streets. Tell the kid who got shot a few years back in Red Hook, in the school yard across from the projects, that the projects are a world onto themselves.
Posted by: Sloper at July 28, 2005 5:59 PM
Sloper--
My apologies. I thought some brand new thought control of some realtor kind was making an appearance and I had to question it!
Posted by: c at July 28, 2005 6:01 PM
It's interesting to note how different in tone this conversation is than if the random violence had happened in Bed-Stuy or Crown Heights. Here, some people try to actually say that project is simply not part of the neighborhood! Hey that solves it! Had it happened in the other areas, let me tell you I can already envision the comments about how property values will plummet in those war zones and you need a bullet-proof vest to run out for a gallon of milk.
No matter where it happened, though, the story is a sad one.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 28, 2005 6:16 PM
As a Boerum hill resident for 7 and a half years (and a Park Slope resident well before that) I can comment on this chain to the following extent:
I agree that it is important to note that Boerum Hill will always have these substantial public housing "anchors" to its neighborhood, but at the same time I don't believe the shooting incident near them is typical at all of Boerum Hill or, indeed, Brooklyn.
Also, although it is true Pacific is more than three blocks away from the Gardens, these are short blocks on a well trafficked path from the Fulton Mall/Flatbush/Downtown Brooklyn area and not the long block(s) that separate Cobble Hill spatially from the Gowanus Houses.
As a general rule, both the Wyckoff Gardens and the Gowanus Houses are much safer than they were in the early 1990's, but Wyckoff Gardens has always had a worse reputation for crime. (It was also the scene of the last vignette in the movie Smoke, for those who have seen that movie.)
As for what is the boundary of Boerum Hill, it is a tough call (as is often the case in NY neighborhoods) but generally I have always thought the bonudary between Boerum Hill and Park Slope was 4th Avenue. The problem is that south of Atlantic Avenue the blocks east of Nevins Street are not consistently residential, but include substantial commercial/light industrial properties. I could understand why people might start trying to exclude certain blocks because of these properties from the neighborhood, but I don't think that would be accurate.
Finally, no one has commented on the price. $1.7 sounds a tad high for Pacific. I know that some places have gone for that amount on other blocks in the Boerum Hill area, but I doubt if a townhouse three doors down from Nevins and backing on to that very large building on the corner of Atlantic and Nevins is worth that much.
Posted by: Anonymous at July 28, 2005 6:18 PM
Sloper, where did you find that description of the boundaries? It soudns right to me, except I would have said that State street was the northern most boundary (meaning both sides of the street).
Posted by: Anonymous at July 28, 2005 6:23 PM
This story was well publicized in the NYT, local tv news, and NY1 over more than one day. So I don't know why people "just heard of it". There is more to news than CNN.com ...
The fact that a shooting in a project even made the news is news (cynical comment). It's only because of the baby element. If it was just gang on gang violence, you wouldn't of heard of it.
So the innoncent bystander type murder is in fact very rare outside of known drug-trafficing areas, and it's misleading that's we're using this example to discuss it's effect on the safety in Boerum Hill.
Posted by: anon123 at July 28, 2005 8:52 PM
Sloper,
Um, yes. Joking. Should I add one of those smiley faces for the irony-challenged next time?
Posted by: linusvanpelt at July 28, 2005 10:03 PM
The description of Boerum Hill's boundaries is from:
http://www.southbrooklyn.net/b_hill.html
Sorry I jumped down your throat, Linus. I thought that you might have been joking, but there really are people who have that attitude.
As to the price, yes, way too much money...
Posted by: Sloper at July 28, 2005 10:13 PM
Sloper,
Believe me, I hear that attitude all the time. What's really funny is, who cares whether the PJs are "part of Boerum Hill"? It's not like there's a force field around them. If it's safe to live nearby, it's safe, but if it's not, you can call it whatever neighborhood you want -- the bullet doesn't care.
Posted by: linusvanpelt at July 29, 2005 7:05 AM
I have live in a brownstone directly right across from Gowanus Houses and right down the street from Wyckoff Houses, and I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news but anyone who thinks this is a safe neighborhood is an idiot.I mean these houses projects are literally "warzones".My wife has been mugged in broad daylight right on Hoyt St.And im convinced it can happen to anyone.So a word to the buyer of the 1.7 million dollar apartment building: buy bulletproof windows(they'll come in handy)
Posted by: Gowanusian at May 20, 2006 9:45 PM
You people writing all theses things down about the projects i happen to live in both the projects and i still have family that lives there. Half the people talking on this page probably not even from the city and don't know how it is to be broke living in New York. some of you might be able to afford a 1.7 mill house but when you live there you have nothing so to people living there they need and they do crazy things for the things they need. so before you New New Yorkers talk, you should find out facts, because when i lived there all them brownstones where crap.
Posted by: Noel at July 6, 2006 2:29 AM
i lived in wyckoff gardens for 18 years raised 4 sons and 1 daughter. and it was more safer than walking through a white neighbor and being looked at as if were all monsters. but if we cleaned your home and took care of you its adifferent story then.
Posted by: bonds05 at July 31, 2007 10:25 PM
i lived in wyckoff gardens for 18 years raised 4 sons and 1 daughter. and it was more safer than walking through a white neighbor and being looked at as if were all monsters. but if we cleaned your home and took care of you its adifferent story then.
Posted by: bonds05 at July 31, 2007 10:26 PM
IM BORN & RAISED IN WYCKOFF HOUSES, I HAVE TO SAY WHEN CRACK CAME OUT IN THE 80'S IT WAS VERY ROUGH, GUNPPLAY DAY & NIGHT & A LOT OF PROSTITUION ON NEVINS ST, I'VE SEEN PLENTY OF CHILDHOOD FRIENDS GET SHOT & GO TO PRISON FOR MANY YEARS. THE 78 PCT NEVER GAVE A CRAP ABOUT THE ENDLESS GUNFIRE COMING FROM WYCKOFF AS LONG AS IT DIDN'T GO DOWN ON DEAN ST, BERGEN ETC. THE TRUTH IS THAT AS MORE WHITE PEOPLE MOVED IN THE AREA THE 78 PCT BECAME MUCH MORE VISIBLE.
Posted by: mrshaw at December 1, 2008 2:00 AM

Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.