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July 29, 2005

$1,000 PSF on Below Fourth Ave? Gimme a Break

development
Our first reaction to this listing was that it had to be a joke. But on closer inspection, it appears to be a legitimate, albeit delusional, attempt to push the bubble to its outer limits. In fact, this one might burst it. Over $1,000 a square foot for an average-looking, new-construction condo on Seventh Street below Fourth, yes Fourth, Avenue? We don't know what else to say. We're stunned.
7th Street [Corcoran]

Comments

That is typical Fort Greene/Clinton Hill elitism...4th Avenue is an exciting, vibrant location close to the excitement of the "new West Village" on 5th Avenue and moments to the "new Tribeca" in DUMBO...I suggest you revise your antiquated, brownstone-oriented perspective and celebrate this triumphant confluence of modern design and marketing...Regards Barbara

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 8:59 AM

Well said, Barbara.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 9:06 AM

Is this the place with the big Corcoran banner? Passed by yesterday. Couldn't believe it.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 9:12 AM

If we're going to pay $1,000 a foot (which we can't afford to do anyway), we'd rather spend it for an historic brownstone three blocks up the hill. Besides, if the market gets a little choppy, which do you think will hold its value better?

Posted by: Brownstoner at July 29, 2005 9:12 AM

Not to mention, it's just minutes away from the future "new Ground Zero" at the Atlantic Yards. Also, Brownstoner, you neglect to mention that this property has a commanding view of the razor-wired roof of the auto-supply store across the street. That alone kicks the price up $200/s.f.

Anyway, I'll leave you all to your squabbling. Since this valuation indicates that my house between 4th and 5th Avenues is worth approximately $3 million, I will soon be selling and retiring to a private island off the coast of Belize. See you later, suckers!

Posted by: linusvanpelt at July 29, 2005 9:12 AM

We are currently in negotiations with the auto supply store to sell that property to Whole Foods...can you please provide me the square footage of your brownstone between 4th and 5th as we are also in discussions with the Gap to open a series of "Baby Brownstone Gap" stores...both of these trends, we are convinced, highlight the value exhibited by this beautiful condo project...thanks Barbara

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 9:20 AM

Are these "barbara" comments for real? This price is beyond insane. Under this view, "Tire Shop Heaven" is worth about as much as prewar apartments just off Central Park West. I think someone took one too many hits off the hooka pricing these places and is now doing the same before posting the "barbara" posts?

Also, for all I know you are Barbara Corcoran, but isn't the Whole Foods going in 3rd Ave and 3rd Street (not exactly next door) and not until 2007.

And like Linus, I just apparently made $1 million on the place I bought 11 months ago.

Framehouser

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 9:37 AM

thank god for brownstoner this morning and linusvp, you are funny today! yes, is that barbara corcoran or are you making a point?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 9:43 AM

Maybe the scariest comment about the housing market is that people are willing to believe "barbara" is serious. (I think "Baby Brownstone Gap" was the tipoff.) Apparently the market is so insane at this point that it's impossible to satirize.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at July 29, 2005 9:43 AM

Thanks Linus for getting the point - the scariest think about the dot com bubble was that people couldn't see through the satire...does anyone remember when someone filed a shelf registration with the SEC for a company whose stated business purpose was "we have no stated business purpose except to participate in internet related business activities" and it was taken seriously...

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 9:48 AM

Guess we're a little slow this morning...Nice one!

Posted by: Brownstoner at July 29, 2005 9:52 AM

Is that built already, or are they selling it before construction? It looks like an artist's rendering.

If they actually get $1.7m for a 3 bedroom on 7th St between 3rd and 4th Avenues, then the same price for the brownstone on Pacific is a very good deal.

I can't imagine they'll actually get that price though. What do people think a fair price would be? To me, seems it can't be worth more than $700,000, tops. Of course, "worth" is very subjective.

Posted by: Sloper at July 29, 2005 9:56 AM

And if you study the plans it appears this $1000sq ft apt is a WALKUP

Posted by: David at July 29, 2005 10:01 AM

1,500 square feet, let's assume nicely done, plus outdoor space. I'll be generous and guess $650 sq ft, which puts it at just under $1 million. I think some of the penthouses in the Ansonia Clock Tower have been on the market recently in the $1.2-$1.4 million ranges, and I think those apartments are probably the best comparisons, albeit they are in a much nicer location. I think anything over $1 million in that location is pushing it. Maybe $1.1 million for the nicest penthouse.

And yes, they are built.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 10:04 AM

I heard the Whole Foods was due to open in 2006 (and, yes, at 220 3rd Street). Where did you hear 2007?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 10:05 AM

Sloper - There is an open house on Sunday, so there must be something there. I don't understand why the Corcoran site does not have any pictures though. Maybe it is only just now being finished.

Perhaps we should all take a look before we jump to conclusions, but $1.6 seems a bit high.

Posted by: Jamzer at July 29, 2005 10:30 AM

The 2007 for Whole Foods was from an article. It would have been posted here or on Curbed.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 10:36 AM

there is life over here below 4th Ave! I live on 11th between 3rd and 4th (have a wood frame house w/ tenants) and it is a lovely and residential block. there was even a NY Times article about some Tribecans who bought a house on my block and they survived the move to this "marginal" area. best part of this area is that our subway stop has an F and an R train ... being a slave to just the F or C trains is such a drag. so there.

Posted by: jemstone at July 29, 2005 10:42 AM

the last two times i've driven to costco down 3rd avenue, i've seen a lot of prostitutes and hookers. can anyone comment on this?

Posted by: ltjbukem at July 29, 2005 10:44 AM

Amen to the comment on the F train. That is why being near to the 9th Street or Prospect Ave stops for the M and the R is so much better than just being stuck near an F stop -- sorry Windsor Terrace.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 10:50 AM

Of course there's life below 4th Avenue. I read that NYTimes article about the Tribeca family that moved to the area, and if I remember correctly, they paid $700,000 for a three or four story house, $1m less than this property. Just because $1.7m seems outrageous for the area doesn't mean it's not a nice area.

As to the prostitutes on 3rd Avenue, I know that a little further down (in the teens and 20s along 3rd Avenue), there are strip places and prostitutes were fairly common around there as well. Until recently (last 10 years or so), the docks at Bush Terminal were operational .... and so dock workers lived/hung around in the vicinity under the highway ... and for some reason, the presence of dockworkers correlated to the sex trade. Same thing along the West Side Highway in the West Village, at least until recently.

Posted by: Sloper at July 29, 2005 10:50 AM

jemstone,

Yeah, I don't want to give the impression that between 3rd and 4th Aves is Scary Hell Town. There are some very nice blocks -- though I would say this particular block of 7th is not the prettiest of them. (Your block on 11th is quite nice I think.) I use the 4th Ave N and R stop and like it. But that doesn't make this Corcoran condo any less overpriced. (As I recall, the Tribeca refugees paid @$800K for a 3 story.)

ltjbukem, I've heard a lot about prostitution on 3rd but haven't seen it driving about. I may just be naive and unobservant, tho. Did you want a comment on their existence or their quality? Maybe there should be a Brownstoner forum comparing the hookers of the borough's nabes.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at July 29, 2005 10:51 AM

linusvanpelt: ha, nice comment..i'm wondering about their existence. this is at 6 to 7pm, this past month or so. hardly during the dark hours. they are dressed in the requisite microminis and look pretty cracked out. possibly trying to get a hit from crack alley behind the 505 court complex that's been profiled on curbed a bit.

Posted by: ltjbukem at July 29, 2005 11:14 AM

yes, there are some prostitutes along 3rd Ave. but I used to live in the far East Village so that's nothing new to me. I can't say much in support of these new condos on 7th St - the development looks so ugly and ticky-tacky - but I just wanted to stand up for our sub-Slope blocks. by the way - we need a name for this hood. I was think GoSlo (Gowanus Slope)?

PS: earlier this year Brooklyn Properties had a house on 7th between 3rd/4th on the market for over $2 million. I wonder if it ever sold?

Posted by: jemstone at July 29, 2005 11:29 AM

Jemstone,

Why not just call it Gowanus? Is there actually room for another neighborhood between Gowanus and Park Slope? At this rate there will be nothing left of Gowanus that isn't covered by water.

Posted by: linusvanpelt at July 29, 2005 11:37 AM

The map on the Community Board 6 website (www.brooklyncb6.org) suggests that yes, this property is in fact located in the neighborhood known as Gowanus. Bet the Corcoran brokers would love that.

Anyway, the borders of Gowanus appear to be 4th Avenue and Court Street, 15th Street and Warren. That places the southern half of the Gowanus and Wyckoff houses (of yesterday's discussion) in Gowanus, with the northern half in Boerum Hill.

Posted by: Sloper at July 29, 2005 11:53 AM

linusvanpelt: I guess I don't call it Gowanus b/c we aren't right next to the canal, but rather just on that side of Park Slope. Park Slope is so big I think it can use a few more micro-hoods. also, I usually think of the name streets (Union, Sackett, Carroll) when people say they live in the Gowanus area. but it's no big deal, I don't need my area to have a cool name to like living here. (I will say that we lost a few prospective tenants b/c this area doesn't have a clear identity. that was really suprising to us!)

Posted by: jemstone at July 29, 2005 11:54 AM

yes - a clear identity and a catchy name are in order. This sounds like East Gowanus, so how abou EGO?
(better than NoGo)

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 12:57 PM

I can't figure out the perspective of the steps in the drawings. It looks like massive front stoops, rising to the tree tops.

An old timer who lived in Boerum Hill all her 80-year life told me Boerum Hill, Gowanus, Carroll Gardens, Cobble Hill and Red Hook used to all just be called Red Hook. Anyone know if that's true?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 2:37 PM

My uncle, who's in his early 80s and lived in Brooklyn until the 1960s, doesn't know what I mean when I say Carroll Gardens (in "I got this fresh mozarella at Caputo's in Carroll Gardens.") He calls the whole area South Brooklyn.

I think the name "Park Slope" is also a relatively recent (post 1960s).

Posted by: Sloper at July 29, 2005 2:57 PM

anon - I agree! The building looks like it's actually over the trees in the drawing. Very odd and hard to get the height perspective.

Posted by: i own a condo at July 29, 2005 3:46 PM

Yes, I've always heard that what we now call Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens, Gowanus and Red Hook used to be called simply South Brooklyn -- which is kind of funny given that it's not the southernmost part of Brooklyn. According to Wikipedia, the term South Brooklyn drives from its location in reference to the original Village of Brooklyn (i.e., the Dutch settlement of Breuckelen), rather than its location in the larger borough. (Wikipedia also includes Park Slope as part of South Brooklyn, but I don't think that's accurate historically.)

Posted by: Park Sloper at July 29, 2005 3:50 PM

I found this on the web, from the WPA Guide to NY (1939). It sounds like Park Slope wasn't part of South Brooklyn, but was limited to the area around Grand Army Plaza. Then down to Sixth Avenue was a neighborhood called "Prospect Park West." Below Sixth Avenue, it was a seedy area with a small colony of Newfoundlanders. :-)

"The Park Slope District, centering about the Grand Army Plaza entrance to Prospect Park at the intersection of Flatbush Avenue and Eastern Parkway, has been since the mid-nineteenth century Brooklyn's "Gold Coast." In the quiet streets off the plaza are rows of residences that rival the mansions on Manhattan's Fifth Avenue...

"Prospect Park West is an equally fine neighborhood, which west of Sixth Avenue changes into an area of seedy houses, industrial plants, and warehouses. In the latter section dwells a small colony of Newfoundlanders, known to the neighborhood as "blue noses" or "fish," who gain a livelihood on the fishing smacks that go down to the sea from Sheepshead Bay."

Posted by: Sloper at July 29, 2005 4:14 PM

I grew up in Bklyn and called the entire Carroll Gardens area "Red Hook." And if I remember The Fortress of Solitude right, Jonathan Lethem uses the term "Red Hook" to describe the area surrounding Boerum Hill -- which was, of course, carved out of Red Hook. Park Slope, though, was always Park Slope although Prospect Hts was usually referred to as Crown Hts.Does this help?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 29, 2005 4:28 PM

WHAT?!?!? You are dilusional!

"We are currently in negotiations with the auto supply store to sell that property to Whole Foods...can you please provide me the square footage of your brownstone between 4th and 5th as we are also in discussions with the Gap to open a series of "Baby Brownstone Gap" stores...both of these trends, we are convinced, highlight the value exhibited by this beautiful condo project...thanks Barbara"

That is just false information, Whole foods is not opening a store anywhere in the vicinity except for 3rd Ave and 3rd Street, construction is progressing well and will be the flagship Whole Foods for NY.

Posted by: Rubenstein at July 30, 2005 3:33 PM

Um, does anyone want to tell Rubenstein that the whole "Barbara" thing is a joke?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 30, 2005 6:51 PM

Did anyone go to the open house today?

Ron Weasley

Posted by: Anonymous at July 31, 2005 2:01 PM

Also, is the Whole Foods really under constuction already? Does this mean we can expect it in 2006?

Ron Weasley

Posted by: Anonymous at July 31, 2005 2:04 PM

ltjbukem --
What's the difference between a hooker and a prostitute? And why does your site always crash my computer? Also are you the dj of the same name or just an admirer. enquiring minds want to know...

Posted by: clinton hillbilly at August 1, 2005 10:52 AM

clinton hillbilly, i do not know the difference. one and the same to me.

i'm not the dj. just a big fan.

also, use mozilla. not sure why it crashes. it is a very basic barebones blog.

Posted by: ltjbukem at August 1, 2005 11:24 AM

Maybe I was a little overzelous! I see the joke. Seriously though how could Corcoran tell these developers to put condos in that location on the market for $1000 a/ft? I think that's extremely irresponsible coming from a firm that touts themselves as the best. Maybe there are really 9 morons from Manhattan that will pay that.

Posted by: Rubenstein at August 1, 2005 11:34 PM

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July 29, 2005

$1,000 PSF on Below Fourth Ave? Gimme a Break

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