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June 24, 2005

Watch Out for the Swarming Volvos

Wrapping up what will heretofore be known as class warfare week on Brownstoner...We followed Set Speed's post on Tuesday about the punk rock ass crack phenomenon (huh?) and wound up reading this excerpt from Hip Hop Diary that was written back in February in response to the Clinton Hill profile in the Times:

If the median income in this area is a bit over 40 grand, and the median price for a small-ass condo is half a million and it's over a million for buildings, who's buying property here now? And what does that bode for the neighborhood's celebrated "economic and cultural diversity?" You know what I see when I walk around here now? Tons of not-exactly-fresh-outta-high school Pratt students (getting an MFA must be the same as getting an MBA was 20 years ago). Rich white dads with baby backpacks. People standing in front of the Clinton-Washington stop asking for directions to Myrtle Avenue. Nannys wheeling children in expensive strollers. And lots and lots of Volvos. They're already swarming. I've gotta get out of here.

Comment: Hey, don't look at us, we've got a used Subaru.
Biggie Shoulda Been Buying Real Estate [Hip Hop Diary]
Recurring Ass Crack Theme [Set Speed]




Posted by Brownstoner at 10:18 AM | Comments (36)
Categories: Neighborhoods

Comments

I think the sightings of the nanny with expensive stroller and rich white dads is more the exception not the rule of a person walking down a Clinton Hill Street. What has changed is that now you will see them but they are hardly on the
verge of becoming the majority in the area. They are adding an economic diversity - which may or not be a good thing.
I think it may becoming just a little less unusual to see them. So to whomeever has a problem with that - get a life and get used to it.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 10:35 AM

Agree, Clinton Hill is still totally projects land

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 10:49 AM

It's "class warfare". Someone here uses quotes like a punk rock ass crack freak.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 10:51 AM

I live in Clinton Hill and I don't even know where the projects are that the poster below is referring to. Where exactly are all these projects? Clinton Hill is a small neighborhood dominated by brownstones and some old apartment buildings along Greene Ave, not projects.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 11:10 AM

I disagree that it is unusual to see such folks. Just walk around on the weekend when people are not at work, you'll see just what the person is talking about. Still very economically diverse though, with a lot of buppies thrown in too and more and more artsy types and same sex couples. Really nice place to live I think, just need to improve the public schools.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 11:13 AM

As a white dude who lived in Fort Greene/Clinton Hill back in the 80's, I want to remind everyone if it wasn't for all those rich Asian Pratt art students, an entire generation of crack heads would have been denied a source of income, and the means to buy more crack. You would never believe how many of my friends would get mugged at the bus stop on Myrtle Ave.
Crack Heads made it possible for me to buy my house at a super cheap price and now sell it if I wish at a million more than I paid for it.

Posted by: Volvo owner at June 24, 2005 11:22 AM

What I think I said was not so unusual anymore to see the expensive stroller set but hardly the
predominant group in area.
To the other remark - projects not really in Clinton Hill but plenty along Myrtle Avenue in Fort Greene.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 11:41 AM

Excellent post by Volvo Owner. Class warfare is so entertaining.

I dunno what it is about the Volvo. I don't own a car yet (thinking about buying one soon), but I am deeply attracted to the Volvo XC Wagon. In Park Slope it's like a requirement - you can't buy a brownstone in PS unless you have a Volvo (or an SUV substitute). Some co-ops will permit Suburu owners (just like some of them permit less than 20% down). But, those are the smaller, less exclusive co-ops.

Posted by: BigBubba at June 24, 2005 12:03 PM

I THINK VOLVOS ARE GREAT. THE HEATED SEATS KEEP MY NANNYS ASS WARM WHILE SHE'S DOUBLE PARKED IN FRONT OF THE BERKELEY CARROLL SCHOOL, WAITING TO PICK UP MY NO NECK MONSTERS. ALSO GET A STATION WAGON. YOU CAN FIT A DOUBLE WIDE STROLLER OR A BUGABOO FROG IN EASY.

Posted by: VOLVO OWNER at June 24, 2005 12:58 PM

Just look at Google Maps and click the satellite view and you will see a solid cluster of projects from Farragut east to about Classon, north of Ft Green Park. The next big cluster is in Bed Stuy about 20-30 blocks east of Clinton Hill proper.

I am in San Diego but am evaluating BK nabes and this is one off the biggest turnoffs about this area... those buildings are going nowhere.

Posted by: Sassy at June 24, 2005 2:05 PM

Good luck evaluating neighborhoods from the confines of lovely San Diego but let me tell you Google maps will tell you nothing about a neighborhood. I've lived in Clinton Hill for years now and hell yeah there are "projects." You surely don't have access to NY1 News in sunny SD but let it be known that the serial rapist they're looking for strikes on the upper west and east sides (not Clinton Hill last I heard).

Posted by: archer at June 24, 2005 2:44 PM

We're coming out to Brooklyn next month and I have the neighborhoods I want to see all mapped out. Clinton Hill / Fort Greene are high on the list but we are also leaning towards Windsor Terrace and even Bay Ridge. I am from LI originally and have been hitting up Brooklynites young and old for weeks now.

Sorry but projects are projects...

Posted by: Sassy at June 24, 2005 2:50 PM

To pretend there are no projects and to imply that the UES/UWS are the danger spots in NYC, is damn foolish

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 2:52 PM

It's not even the fact that there are projects that's an issue. It's the fact that there is a huge unbroken cluster of 20 or more buildings concentrated in a few square blocks.

Posted by: Sassy at June 24, 2005 2:53 PM

For those who are checking out projects via satellite photos, those projects are in really not even seen by the people who live in landmarked Fort Greene and Clinton Hill. They really are on the "other side of the tracks" (i.e. other side of Ft. Green Park, near downtown, and the BQE/Navy Yard) and don't result in big neighborhood problems from the 6 yrs I've been in the neighborhood. Totally misleading to say the neighborhood is dominated by projects, when it in reality is not at all.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 2:59 PM

Ok... let's say my budget puts me in a 1BR on Clinton & Washington ... Will I 'see' the projects from there?

Posted by: Sassy at June 24, 2005 3:03 PM

I just checked the google maps satellite view on Park Slope and guess what... You can see massive swarming clusters of Volvo station wagons. And every 5 seconds, the wagons seem to divide into Bugaboos and all-terrain strollers. It seems to be multiplying and spreading beyond the Park Slope borders like a... like a cancer.

OMG

Posted by: BigBubba at June 24, 2005 3:04 PM

No, you won't "see" projects if you live on Clinton or Washington. Just walk around the neighborhood if you visit, you'll get a feel for where you feel comfortable. Everyone has different comfort levels. If you've lived in a less urban environment and you move to Brooklyn, many areas are going to seem much more urban and different than what you are used to. I've lived in Carrol Gardens, Ft. Greene and now Clinton Hill and love all of those neighborhoods - as well as the other Brownstone Bkln nabes...

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 3:12 PM

Eeks - SanDiego - bigger bubble city than NY.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 3:22 PM

To "anonymous" who writes that the projects are on the other side of the tracks, you're exactly right. In my years too it's never been an issue.

To the other "anonymous" who writes that "To pretend there are no projects and to imply that the UES/UWS are the danger spots in NYC, is damn foolish" -- I didn't say that. What I was trying illustrate is that a cluster of buildings on a google map isn't quite doing due diligence. My other point is that danger lurks... it doesn't just sit there in CH waiting for you.

Oh and to BigBubba, love it. Hilarous. Good luck, Sassy. Enjoy the exploring. You're fine on Clinton or Washington. Beautiful neighborhood, nice people and some wonderful restaurants.

Posted by: archer at June 24, 2005 3:34 PM

To Sassy: I scanned your blog a bit. I think you're better off doing a short term rental/sublet somewhere for a few months to really get a sense of the place. You may find your more of a Brooklyn Heights person, who knows? And given the real estate market, if your going to buy something now, you may be stuck with it for a while if the market dives, so better to not make a mistake.

Posted by: anon123 at June 24, 2005 3:49 PM

I want to echo Sassy here.

This has truly devolved into an asinine discussion. What do you think you can really learn about a neighborhood via Google maps and satellite photos? Guess what? You have to visit the neighborhood to get a feel for it and understand how it works.

I live in Carroll Gardens one block from the Gowanus Houses. If I had made a housing decision based on a map and the proximity to the projects, I would not be where I am today (and very happy).

There are plenty of projects all over Brooklyn. Some are better than others. To dismiss an entire neighborhood because from a satellite you see a large cluster of projects is ridiculous.

Posted by: bored at work at June 24, 2005 4:39 PM

Wow how terrible people who work for a living moving into your neighborhood - OMG the 'hood is going down hill!
BTW - If all those white dads were truly rich then they wouldnt be living in Clinton Hill or anywhere near Myrtle Avenue.

Posted by: David at June 24, 2005 4:40 PM

Bored - glad your happy but 1. If you live 1 block from the Gowanus Houses you live in Boreum Hill not Carrol Gardens and 2. You might not get a flavor for you neighborhood looking at a map, but if you think living next those projects is a bonus you are delusional. Again I am not trying to insult you and I am glad that you are happy but in terms of crime - Gowanus and Wycoff Houses are crime ridden when compared with the surrounding neighborhood.

Posted by: David at June 24, 2005 4:47 PM

Oh come on now, you know as well as I do that "rich" is such a relative thing. Maybe the white-dad-volvo guy is just middle class in your eyes, but if you don't got a pot to piss in, then he's rich by comparison.

Is that really so difficult to grok?

Posted by: BigBubba at June 24, 2005 4:51 PM

I once refused to buy a house because it was right across from the Gowanus Projects. Yup, I'm guilty as charged.

See, I grew up in and around projects. You couldn't pay me to look out my window at those projects every day.

Posted by: BigBubba at June 24, 2005 4:53 PM

Bubba -
I get it but what I dont get is an attitude where a neighborhood is going down if people who have more "than a pot to piss in" and who have 2 parents working (i.e. need for a Nanny)move in - Personally I avoid neighborhoods where no has a pot and (therefore must piss everywhere).

Posted by: David at June 24, 2005 4:57 PM

Thanks for the info all - anon123 - I do plan to rent for a year but I'd like it to be just a year - so I'm thinking like a buyer. Even if I am a BK Heights guy I don't know I can afford it :-)

And re: Projects - I'm sorry but the projects are the projects and you can't rationalize their problems away by calling their residents "working people". Compton, CA is a very working class city but that doesn't change the fact that it has a crime problem.

Posted by: Sassy at June 24, 2005 4:58 PM

Bubba -

Thanks for the geography lesson, but I live in Carroll Gardens.

I never said it was a bonus to live near the projects, only that to dismiss a neighborhood because a friggin satellite photo shows some nearby was crazy.

And your high level analysis that there is more crime in the projects than in the surrounding neighborhood is right on the mark - do have access to COMPSTAT or did you figure than one out all by yourself?

Posted by: bored at work at June 24, 2005 5:43 PM

Ok, how about this:
House A: 10 miles from the projects in a decent area
House B: 10 blocks from the projects in a decent area

People with kids care, dude.

Posted by: Sassy at June 24, 2005 5:47 PM

10 miles! This is NY. 10 miles from Bstone Brooklyn and you'd be in Greenwich Village. Just visit the neighborhoods, this is a stupid discussion.

Posted by: Anonymous at June 24, 2005 5:52 PM

I moved to Clinton Hill more than five years ago from decidedly "less urban" Washington, DC. It was much more rough back then (but not as rough as it was 5 years before *that*, or so I'm told). I sort of agree with the original post. I would hate to see this neighborhood one day un-diversify. I love the mix of people in this neighborhood and wouldn't want to see one "class" tip the scales either way.

We also own a Volvo sedan - *gasp*. But I swear we had a reason to buy it. My husband was hit by a 18-wheeler on Atlantic Ave, totalling his much-less-snobby Nissan Sentra (which had be broken into four or five times in our hood). A volvo seemed a good idea at the time. I did cringe at the fact that it was soooo soccer-mommy.

Posted by: Clinton Hill girl at June 24, 2005 5:53 PM

Ok, this really is getting to be a stupid discussion. Also, I think somebody's attributing some stuff to me, that I think some other poster said.

I'm too confused to follow the thread anymore. Time to get drink. Later folks.

Posted by: BigBubba at June 24, 2005 5:59 PM

Are you, Big Bubba, the same real estate bubba that has been getting so much media attention lately? I'm tired of hearing, "Is it a bubba?" or "When do you think the Bubba is going to burst?"
or "How do you know it's a bubba to begin with." Now I hear you are confused and going out drinking.

Posted by: volva owner at June 24, 2005 8:55 PM


I got bitch slapped once. But you know what, I kind of liked it.

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