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May 24, 2005

OTBKB on Development and the Public's Voice

Only the Blog Knows Brooklyn reflects on the push-and-pull process by which development occurs throughout the borough and ends up sounding, dare we say, optimistic. Ah, idealism.
develop

Brooklyn is having a moment the likes of which I haven't seen since I moved here in 1991. All of a sudden it's the it-borough: Manhattan is expanding eastward and the land grab of 2005 is a veritible gold rush. But there's also a whole lot of shoutin' going on. People are organizing and blogging and demonstrating and talking and petitioning and yelling and writing and speech making and thinking and...You get the idea. This is fighting the good fight Brooklyn style. And like Brooklyn, it's smart and scrappy, down to earth, spunky and ambitious. It's gotta be. Development on this scale represents big money, big politics, big corporations, and in some cases, big bad guys. It's a tough fight to fight. But with the help of the activists, the urban historians, the humanistic theorists, the gurus of smart development, maybe, just maybe, some visionary plans can get generated and put to the test.

Postcard from The Slope: Loud [OTBKB]




Posted by Brownstoner at 9:41 AM | Comments (13)

Comments

Yes Indeed it is very idealistic approach specially that part about Developers walking and learning from neighborhoods somehow I am can not picture Ratner doing that.
Really great approach is to fight them with zoning adjustments like FGA and CHS is trying to do. It will prevent Carlton street disaster from happening again.
http://www.historicfortgreene.org/r6b.html
Unfortunately this zoning change will not save us from Trump ghetto in Atlantic yards.
There is no doubt that Atlantic Yards should be develop but in more civilize way.
Big question is what we can really do to make sure that Brooklyn will stay low.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 24, 2005 10:44 AM

Why low? Has downtown Brooklyn been historically low (answer = no), is density appropriate in an urban setting next door to a major transit hub (answer=yes). You want to keep Brooklyn the way YOU like it, but your prefrences do not make for an econmically viable and vibrant city (city as in Brooklyn). The neighborhoods we so love, were built and supported by (NEARBY) heavy industry and manufacturing that no longer exists, nor would your prefrences allow them to return. So in order to sustain Brooklyn, it has to adapt. No we shouldnt destroy great neighborhoods to adapt but empty lots and rail yards are not a neighborhood!

Posted by: David at May 24, 2005 12:05 PM

I agree there is no manufacture industry and it needed to be replaced by office space, and Atlantic yards are good place to develop. Would it be nice if there would be some mix of office/retail/living space balanced with green space? Would it be nice if all of this would be lower than 6 floors so it would be actually nice to be there (human scale).
As oppose to Battery Park city or midtown hi rise architecture. And most of Brooklyn is historically low (except of dumbo, downtown Brooklyn) and this is her beauty.
Problem is that I have seen this project for Atlantic yard and it is way to massive it is a sort of the barrier between two hoods (PH and FG)
Just take a look at this website, it is way out of scale!!!!!
http://www.bball.net/
What we need is something that will connect hoods not separate.
Whole nets arena is there only for two reason to please major Markowitz ( he wants to be the one who brings back professional sport to B ) and to grab public money (my and yours taxes) in order to finance private business (condo sells).
I just can not believe what is happening and why some people are for this project.
After Atlantic center Ratner should be banned from Brooklyn it is architectural disaster (it is ugly as hell it could be ok in suburbs on New Jersey maybe). Pulse thinks like Carlton street disaster (different developer) I just can not see anything good coming in Atlantic Yard.

It really can be done in Better Brooklyn way. It can be done Just look at State street development
http://www.14townhouses.com./main.html

Posted by: malymis at May 24, 2005 1:48 PM

1st of all the barrier between PH and FG is ATLANTIC AVE (6 lanes of major fast moving traffic) so no matter what you build they will now and always be seperated. Secondly while you (and others) don't like the design of Atlantic Yards, developers dont have too (thank God) have to get the sign-off of every person living in the city to see what THEY would like built!
You said:
"Would it be nice if all of this would be lower than 6 floors so it would be actually nice to be there (human scale).As oppose to Battery Park city or midtown hi rise architecture. "

Actually NO - Williamsburg Savings Bank is far taller than 6 stories and you know what - it is beautiful as is 30 Court Street and a ton of other Brooklyn Buildings. As is much of mid-town's architecture (your right about Battery Park City).

"And most of Brooklyn is historically low (except of dumbo, downtown Brooklyn) and this is her beauty."

Says who???? Anti-development folks who have jobs or who "freelance" and dont care about maintaining a sustainable economy for ALL of Brooklyn's residents?

Urban planning isnt really that hard - density in a centralized location where transportation systems merge and then lower density as you move away from the center. Maybe people havent noticed but Atlantic and Flatbush is THAT center - what Williamsburg Savings Bank represents is the last bit of appropriate development prior to the destruction brought on by the suburbanization of America (and the almost destruction of the city). I for one am glad that approriate development may once again begin in the great city of Brooklyn!

Posted by: David at May 24, 2005 2:50 PM

I don't know about any great city of Brooklyn -
but as far as NYC is concerned - and we have to
think of the whole city first - not Prospect Hts
nor boro of Bklyn - whether this is good. Just because someone lives closer to development site doesn't give them a veto.
So as far as New York City (think about 8 million poeple not just the few thousand nearby) goes - this area is a major transportation hub and looking to financial
future of this city - is prime for large-scale development.
There are plenty of examples of high-rise bldgs throughout boro - think all the new downtown office bldgs, starrett city, mitchel-lama coops
and rentals.
A good debate is what taxpayer finances will go into this and what is overall taxpayer benefit long term. I don't know that answer - but all I seem to hear is from the one corner is fight this no matter what....
Ever hear the term CAVE people - Citizens Against
Virtully Anything -- I think their are plenty
around us.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 24, 2005 3:49 PM

You said:

1st of all the barrier between PH and FG is ATLANTIC AVE (6 lanes of major fast moving traffic) so no matter what you build they will now and always be separated.

Unlike the BQE, Atlantic Ave can be crossed. It is actually has traffic lights. Development could help to bridge traffic on Atlantic, but what I’ve seen isn’t promising. There was nothing in the Gehry design that facilitates it. On the contrary, he does not even bother to continue the streets coming down from Fort Greene. (Nets station…. Please it will be as charming as Madison Square Garden vicinity. You sound like someone who has something to do with urban planning--you should know that stadiums do not create a vibrant urban community).

You said:

Actually NO - Williamsburg Savings Bank is far taller than 6 stories and you know what - it is beautiful

You are absolutely right it is a gorgeous building but part of its charm is based on the fact that it is a single dominant amid the surrounding neighborhoods. It is a counterpoint and it works it has a clock and all people in the hood knows what time it is. It is unique one of its kind. As the Eiffel tower dominates Paris, so the clock tower dominates Fort Greene. Now imagine dozens of buildings like this one from Atlantic center are right next to it!!!!!

You said:

(quoting me:) "And most of Brooklyn is historically low (except of dumbo, downtown Brooklyn) and this is her beauty.” Says who???? Anti-development folks who have jobs or who "freelance" and don’t care about maintaining a sustainable economy for ALL of Brooklyn's residents?

Well just look around most of Brooklyn is low. And I am not anti-development. I like development and good appropriate architecture—why not think it through and do it well?

You said:

Maybe people haven’t noticed but Atlantic and Flatbush is THAT center - what Williamsburg Savings Bank represents is the last bit of appropriate development prior to the destruction brought on by the suburbanization of America (and the almost destruction of the city). I for one am glad that appropriate development may once again begin in the great city of Brooklyn!

Atlantic is a natural commercial core for Brooklyn and needs to be developed, absolutely. We would like to create a thriving neighborhood – that’s what Brooklyn is about. It is not suburbia—nor should it be treated like downtown LA.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 24, 2005 4:38 PM

You said
Just because someone lives closer to development site doesn't give them a veto.

What do you mean? That’s something it could expect to hear in communist dictatorship country. Not in democracy.
Of course it does.

You said
There are plenty of examples of high-rise bldgs throughout boro - think all the new downtown office bldgs, starrett city, mitchel-lama coops

Yes and they are so great and amazing architectural creation I can not wait to have them more. !!!!

Posted by: malymis at May 24, 2005 4:55 PM

You said:
Well just look around most of Brooklyn is low. And I am not anti-development. I like development and good appropriate architecture—why not think it through and do it well?

Yes do it well, but who decides what is "appropriate" - at one time Manhattan was all low-rise too, do you think it would be a viable economic engine if developers were prevented from building anything taller than 6 stories?
All of Brooklyn should not be (and is not) ONE type of building or even one mandated height of building. That is terrible architecture and urban planning (ntice how in the suburbs nothing is over a few stories either - and also everything is the same - sounds nice does it???).
The WSB is not the Effiel Tower nor was it constructed as a monument, rather it was built as an office building and unfortunatly no others were built around it (Citicorp Ctr LIC anyone?) - 1st b/c of the depression, and then because of the virtual collapse of the city and especially Brooklyn. Any area that is the "commercial core" of a city (or boro) of 2.5+ Million people with 10+ subway lines, a major commutter rail hub, busses and two major intersecting throughfares, should not be limited to 5 story buildings because thats what is there already. Not if you want the city/boro to thrive as oppossed to stagnate.
As for your Statium argument, while there are few examples in today's auto centered world no one was complaining about Ebbets Field, Washington Park, or even the original Madison Square Garden as being destroyers of the neighborhoods - thats because people came by train OR WALKED and there is no reason to assume the vast majority of people cant do the same now.

Posted by: David at May 24, 2005 6:01 PM

I have no desire to get in the middle of this debate, but I just thought I would throw out one thought. I love the brownstone neighborhoods of Brooklyn, and I hope they are not destroyed, but one inherent danger in mainting the low-rise character of Brooklyn that people fail to mention is that when you create historic districts with height restrictions on new development, you essentially create an enclave for the very wealthy to live. It doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. The West Village, Brooklyn Heights, and Cobble Hill are all prime examples, as well as central Paris (since you brought that city up).

Not that I don't think we should preserve these histroric neighborhoods, but I think this side-effect is not often mentioned.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 25, 2005 6:05 PM

Good point but is there alternative? They did try low income hi-rise buildings in NYC and it did not work out.

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