Shootout in Saratoga Park in Broad Daylight?

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There was a shootout in Saratoga Park around 5:50 pm Wednesday, according to a message on the Stuyvesant Heights Parents Group message board. Here is what it said:

“I was just informed by my daughter’s teacher that there was shooting in Saratoga Park yesterday at approx. 5:50 pm — just before the after school program let out. Per the teacher, people were shooting after each other in a number of different directions. There were children in the park and adults were forced to pull them to the ground to protect them. She has suggested we don’t go to the park. Please protect your little people and yourself. Be vigilant, be at the ready and please report anything you see or hear any time it happens. I will be calling the precinct today to request police presence at the parks during peak times where we seem to have the most children (2 pm to 6 pm at Saratoga and the Blue Park at Stuyvesant and Fulton). I urge you to do the same.”

A followup message said a community affairs officer named Manderson said the shooting was a dispute between neighbors, and that the shooters were apprehended and the guns confiscated. (There were only two shooters, apparently.) The “park is safe and the shooting had nothing to do with the park,” the officer reportedly said. When we called community affairs for more information, we were referred to the department that handles media relations for the entire police department. A spokesman in that department said he had no information about the incident. Did anyone witness or hear about this?

67 Comment

  • Please keep the “stop and frisk” alive.

    • anonlurker

      let’s make this a 100 comment day, shall we?

      “The drop in murders in New York City, for example, from 2002 until now has been about 12 percent, from 587 annually to 536. During the same period, the number of murders declined by 43 percent in Washington and by 50 percent in Los Angeles, two cities that have less aggressive stop and frisk tactics.

      …Aggressive quota-driven policing, stop and frisk being the most troubling example, while aimed at enhancing community safety and well being, actually undermines respect for social norms that is the bedrock for creating stable and crime-free communities. A neighborhood-based approach with officers focused on collaborating with local leaders on problem solving represents a more effective way for us to achieve a more safe and inclusive city for all New Yorkers.” – director the Police Reform Organizing Project at the Urban Justice Center.

      • There are so many issues with your statistics. First stop and frisk did not start in NYC in 2002 (it started aggressively under Giuliani and Street Crimes Units) so why you pick 2002 is probably because it removes the higher number of 2001 where there were 649 homicides. You also conveniently leave out 2011 and 12 where the homicide rate fell to 417 (and is on track to be only 303). [how to lie with statistics??]

        So looking at 2002 until 2012 NYC fall was 29%

        And while the rates fell a higher percentage in DC and LA, they were coming from a MUCH higher rate per 100k in NYC in 2002 it was 7.3 per 100k, in LA it was 17.1 and DC it was 46.2) today NYC is 5.08 per 100k and LA is 7.7 and DC is 17 -both sill higher than NY in 2002).
        Also we do not know the rates of stop and frisk in either of these cities because they are not scrutinized by the courts and NYC has been since the Diallo case (1999)
        Also why do you only pick DC and LA, you conveniently left out Chicago and Philly – cities far more comparable to NYC than DC. Could it be because the homicide rate INCREASED over the same period in Philadelphia and fell much less in Chicago?

        NYC has seen a dramatic and continued crime decrease over the last 20 years – it has not been duplicated anywhere in the US in terms of the breath and consistency as NYC

        • anonlurker

          the link that stop and frisk has curtailed the murder rate is tenuous at best. i could just as easily point to the fact that a better NY economy has contributed to it. while stops have increased over 500K since 2003 barely an additional 200 guns have been found. the fact is that it’s unconstitutional and eventually the courts will declare this. Blacks make up 23.4% of NYC yet in 2011 53% of stop and frisk targeted them. Latinos make up 29% and 34% of stop and frisk in 2011 targeted them. according to the NYCLU, “a weapon was found in only 1.8 percent of blacks and Latinos frisked, as compared to a weapon being found in 3.8 percent of whites frisked.” i use 2011 stats because it’s the most recent ones i could find.

        • Thank you brklynmind for the detailed response.
          These 2 responses above should be in the front page of the NY Times. Perfect evidence of how the anti “stop and frisk” groups try to play with statistics to suit their case.

          • anonlurker, I understand that you are correlating the black and latino popluation rate to the stop and frisk rate. However, do you know what was the % of gun related crimes committed by blacks and latinors in 2011. I think that might give you the answer on why blacks and latinos are the focus of “stop and frisk”.

          • anonlurker

            brooklyn72 – oy. if you are concerned with results over the actions taken to get them why not just install race based curfews, programs that limit sales of weapons to minorities, or tracking device implants on former offenders post parole, etc. I’m sure these measures might temporarily lower murder rates. i think there are better ways to engage the community which could have positive results while respecting individual freedom and constitutional rights. first thing we should do is stop cutting school funds and on-the-street patrolling.

          • Wow anonlurker you’ve resorted to the “slippery slope” argument so fast…weak.
            If you assume (I am sure you don’t) that stops are based on reasonable suspicion (the legal standard) then by definition the Stops need to be correlated to the description of perpetrators. Trying to equate the legal requirement with putting tracking devices in former offenders is ridiculous.

            As for your argument that a better economy accounts for the homicide rate – the economy in 96-2000 was far better than now and…..much higher homicide rates.

            As for the number of weapons recovered and higher rates of S&F – first the number isnt likely increasing as much as you cite, just that documentation of the stops is a higher priority (pursuant to a court order) and either way the effect on S&F is only fractionally related to the guns being removed and largely related to risk of carrying a firearm in NYC. If you believe there is a substantial chance you will be found with an illegal firearm, you are much less likely to carry it. If you do not have a weapon, many encounters that might have resulted in deadly violence do not occur. You’d be amazed on the number of murders that take place today that start with a fight and then an aggrieved party leaving and coming back with a gun. …

          • anonlurker

            brklynmind – neither i nor the cops i am friends with believe that the majority of stops are based on reasonable suspicion, or at least an objective version of reasonable suspicion. this is the problem. and i don’t think the slippery slope example in this case is at all weak. i am not arguing against the prohibition of guns on streets and the violence committed with guns. i am arguing against a method of racial profiling that i and most constitutional scholars believe to be illegal and immoral. unfortunately the stats and numbers will lie. you will use them to argue your side and i will use them to argue mine. so it looks like neither of us will change each other’s opinion and i really don’t care about that. at the end of the day i prefer to discuss effective methods to deter these activities that do not trample civil liberties. i am not for a results at any cost approach.

          • ” i am not for a results at any cost approach”

            Ask the parents of the tens of thousands of kids of color alive today as a result of the dramatic decline in homicides if they agree with your “principled” stand on their behalf.

          • anonlurker

            brklnmind – are you serious? ugh, don’t answer that. have a good day.

  • MrHancock

    Must have been some of those awful hipsters everyone complains about.

  • SewardWasRight

    The park was not part of this at all.

    Some folks from the apartment houses on Halsey were involved. Ambulances and squad cars responded to an address closer to the Howard Ave. intersection (than the Saratoga). It was over almost as soon as it started.

    As Chief Wiggum would say, “OK, everybody, move along – nothing to see here…..”

  • brownstoneshalfoff

    “My Bed-Stuy neighborhood around Saratoga park gets very quiet at night and I love it…” – post1175 August 5, 2013 at 8:07 pm in Luxury Rentals Launch at 71 Stuyvesant

  • “[The] park is safe and the shooting had nothing to do with the park,” the officer reportedly said.

    Um, what?

    First, I don’t consider somewhere a shooting takes place to be “safe.”

    Second, the shooting had everything to do with the park: that’s where it happened!

    This is an entirely too dismissive comment from the police.

    Tonight’s the National Night Out. Hopefully there’s a neighborhood response in the park tonight.

  • Funny, not all information from the follow up post was included in this story i.e.: ” As it turned out plain clothes officers were nearby and responded… there are often officers at or near the park and they are usually in plain clothes.” Really??? If you can’t tell the right story don’t tell it at all. Thanks @SewardWasRight, the Chief Wiggum was right on.

  • And on Saturday morning a 27yo was stabbed and murdered on Franklin/Eastern Pkwy. Yup, glad the perp wasn’t stopped/frisked. Cuz personal rights

  • Cate

    So two people standing on Halsey Street across the street from the park near Howard Avenue shot at each other? Maybe they were standing approximately where the house with the green bay window is located? And they live in the two apartment house on the corner of Halsey and Howard with a mural across from Bed Stuy Fish Fry?

  • While the park has proved itself to be literally unsafe based on the shooting yesterday, I don’t think the solution is to abandon it. It seems like that will only make it more “dangerous”, or susceptible to other types of criminal activity. It’s highly unlikely that another shooting will happen this week so it seems like it’s probably “especially safe” right now and in the near future. Kind of like eating at a restaurant that just suffered an ecoli outbreak. Eating there the following wee, you are probably going to have the safest eating experience you could have because the staff and owners probably took pains to see the food is now safe.

  • I love this reaction…..because it (and others like it) will force the hand of the next Mayor and expose them for the hypocrites that they are.
    These hacks can yell about stop and frisk all they want now, but once they are in office and the shootings begin to return they will have no choice but to the tactics that work. Stop and frisk makes the risk of regularly carrying a gun simply too high for most and this limits shootings. Eliminate S&F more people will carry, more people will be shot, and the hue and cry from the spoiled masses will quickly prove that Kelly and Bloomberg were correct.

    • You honestly believe stop & frisk would have prevented a shooting based on a dispute between neighbors?

      • S&F discourages people walking around with a firearm — that lowers probability of shootings. No one said S&F stops all shootings (clearly it doesnt) but when you make it harder for PO to search people, then more people will carry and more shootings will occur AND we know that neighborhoods will get up in arms over even 1 shooting – which will make the politics of S&F much different after the election, if the next mayor follows through on the pre-election rhetoric.

        • You are not going to prevent these types shootings with an appeal with stop & frisk. They were neighbors. Unless you are willing to say neighbors are less willing to go to their homes and get a gun to confront another neighbor, then bringing up stop & frisk in this instance is a red herring to make a political point.

  • brownstoneshalfoff

    I’m loving the damage control. Justify these Ponzi prices!

    • This part of Bed-Stuy is great and will continue to be even better. These things still do happen in Brooklyn and will not affect the prices. Remember, people look at what it used to be like, what it is like now and how it will be tomorrow. Still one of the most quiet and beautiful places in Brooklyn. I live next to the park and have been a strong supporter of improving it. Last week i wrote to the parks people and requested they improve it. Now everyone needs to write their letters and request our park gets updated, it needs it. Those few houses across the street from the park have always been dirty and some of the very few left in our area. Thankfully, they did their own recon by fire and were discovered by the police. Now it will be two, or more less bad people in that area. They are probably responsible for most of the crime in that section of Bed-Stuy. Glad to live here and love every minute of it.

      • I feel like everyone on this website lately is a broker. Yes, it’s marvelous! Beautiful area! Tooootttallly safe!

        Tell me, post, do your kids go to the local school?

        • Thank you Heather for pointing this out, I actually grew up in Bed-Stuy and went to my zoned school PS.44- Marcus Garvey Elementary School, which at the time was terrible. I transferred to PS.58 The Carroll School b4 it got all exclusive with it’s dual language immersion program. The schools from my childhood sucked here and that is something has had impacted on family moving decisions and housing cost. I’m only 24 so this isn’t that long ago.

        • Not sure what school attendance has to do with this article, since I can’t recall anyone being shot at P.S. 05. Look, I don’t understand why people that do not live in the area bash it, or why the ones that live here have negative things to say. Either stay here and make it better, move away, or move into the neighborhood and be cool. Otherwise it is hateful and shows that you have nothing better to do than hate on other people making a good amount of money on their investment. This is turning into an “I told you so”. Just let people be if they want to live here, and mind your own business on who wants to pay what for a property. It is apparent that most of you commenting on this as if it was a weird occurrence that bullets were flying, are not from the NYC area, or were naive that this could never happen here. Yes, my kids go to school here and no there has not been any shootings at their schools, terrible comparison Heather. Get over it, bullets will fly in Brooklyn, it is not for the faint of heart, but the good people that live here, are some of the best and strongest I have ever seen and that’s why I love it here.

          • “Don’t hate on me, bullets will fly in Brooklyn, that’s no reason not to pay $1.3 million dollars for a limestone overlooking a beautiful park! You are all just jealous of our lifestyle. Plus, it’s obvious you are from Ohio, because why are you hating on our lifestyle?”
            –Post 1175

            Actually, going by the link on inside schools http://insideschools.org/component/schools/school/699
            PS 5 looks like it could be okay–probably one of the better schools in the area. But I’m not sure the people coming into the neighborhood now are going to think so–or do anything to improve it.

            Post1175, for whatever reason, you’re overcome by civic pride. That’s totally fine. You know, I actually like your neighborhood. I’d live there. We may still end up living there. But to ignore the fact that there’s crime and that a bunch of your neighbors are really, really poor would be to ignore reality. Would I pay over a million dollars to live here? No.

          • Heather I feel like what you’ve pointed out is my biggest concern. The public’s blatant disregard for the fact that though Bed-Stuy is a neighborhood in transition it hasn’t arrived as of yet. Ask any random stranger on the street about Bed-Stuy and they’ll say “Isn’t that neighborhood super gentrified”. This actually not the case but instead something that is perceived by many and has probably influenced many sales.
            Post 1175- My family has lived in Bed-Stuy since 1941, my mom went to concord church’s school when they use to beat children with rulers. We also have been members of St. Georges Episcopal Church. So I do feel comfortable commenting on this topic having grown up in this neighborhood during 90′s when you would jump out of bed fearful of bullets coming through your window. I live closer to Tompkins Park, where there have been a great deal of shootings. I love neighborhood and family aspect of Bed-Stuy, but to be ignorant about the dangers of living here is irresponsible. The Famous case of Nixzmarie Brown was right in front Tompkins Park. Beautiful homes there too!, but doesn’t make me ignore the safety issues there, especially with those wanting to raise new families there. I don’t know if I would pay to 1.3million dollars for that balance of home value to neighborhood safety/ value. This site is comprised of a lot of word of mouth which both good and negative, it’s important that all aspects that comprise these neighborhoods be explored. I appreciate that crime is finally be discussed.

  • Hey Guy’s,
    If we’re actually gonna discuss this, let’s look at the facts, here are the crime stats for both ends of Bed-Stuy both East and West:
    East: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs079pct.pdf
    West: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs081pct.pdf

    Now though according to these records crime seems to be overall down, I find it interesting to look at both the section of Shooting Victims and Shooting Incidents, ie: people don’t always die when they are shot thus not making it a murder. Also there seems to be a discrepancy between the historical record numbers of 2012 and the ones directly being compared to 2013. Historical Rec. 2012 is much higher – Not sure what to make of that. Now It would be great to actually look at these number in comparison to an area such a Park Slope and, Prospect Heights, Bushwick, so on and so forth. To see what types of crime take place in certain areas that both decrease or add value to it.

  • On another note if your surprised about a shooting at 5:30p in Bed-Stuy, you must be really oblivious to the world around yourself. This is not uncommon in Bed-Stuy what so ever. There were 2 shooting during July 4th wk resulting in 3 victims, one around 2pm in the afternoon on the historic end of Nostrand Ave. and Jefferson Ave and the other further down on Jefferson Ave. The Nostrand shooting took place in front of the building directly next to the Free masons church. This street is heavily frequented by many people all races, and ages. The innocent bystander struck in the line of fire looked very young possible under the age of 18, -he could be anyone’s child or anyone of us. Tons of strollers travel this route along with families at this hour.
    Here’s a link to the incident which actually shows the shooting victim after being shot compressing his wound as to not bleed out on the sidewalk: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=9163228

    Make what you want of it, but live in reality.

  • Folks, take this opportunity to write to Parks department and ask for improvements to the infrastructure of the park.

  • I agree it’s bizarre and dismissive to say “the shooting had nothing to do with the park”. What does that even mean??

    I also never understand the “this kind of thing happens in Brooklyn” comments. Yes, the question is how often and what are the odds.

  • Cate

    I don’t know of any “dirty” houses on Halsey across from the park between Howard and Saratoga. All the houses in that block are very attractive. One, a multifamily toward the Saratoga side, was recently rehabbed by Habitat for Humanity.

    • SewardWasRight

      It’s all hit-or-miss on that side of the park, Cate. If there is ever a problem on any of the streets surrounding the park – it is *usually* on that side.

      • Cate

        Hit or miss — well, never mind.

        How do you like Macon between Saratoga and Howard? (Or Saratoga and Thomas Boyland — but we were discussing the park.) What about Saratoga between Halsey and Macon?

        • SewardWasRight

          Hhahhahahhahahahaaaaaaaaaaa…..I am slow today…. Macon between Saratoga and Howard is much nicer for some reason. I think it may have to do with not being on a more major thorough fare (like Halsey) and having less traffic. Saratoga between Halsey and Macon is nice actually. You mostly have folks visiting the park through those gates and the old folks home is just across the street. Always nice folks.

          • Cate

            Thanks, SWR. Are you sure that’s just an old folks home across the street? I always thought the senior housing part was just a few floors, not the whole building.

  • I bought in Stuy Heights, and I love it–however, it’s true that gun violence is still regrettably a problem with the neighborhood. I’ve never felt threatened or unsafe out there–but I also bear in mind the realities of the situation, and don’t engage in risky behavior (coming home late at night, etc.). It’s a problem that’s on the downswing, though, as a look at precinct crime statistics will tell you.

    Most of the violent crime in the neighborhood (this incident included) involve individuals who know each other, not random acts of violence. The reason that I moved here, and the reason that many others continue to do so, is the feeling that the area is definitely on the upswing, making it a good investment. Over time the hope is that the area will get better, as “problem people” are slowly pushed out and/or arrested. I can say one thing for sure–currently this area is much better than my street in Williamsburg was in 2000.

    • SewardWasRight

      Cate – I always thought it was, but you brought up a good question, so I did some research. From the NYCHA website: “Saratoga Square Houses in Brooklyn has two buildings, 12 and 13-stories tall exclusively for seniors. It has 251 apartments housing about 271 residents. The 2.35-acre site was completed November 30, 1980 and is bordered by Halsey and Macon Streets, Broadway and Saratoga Avenue.”

  • daveinbedstuy

    “the link that stop and frisk has curtailed the murder rate is tenuous at best. ”

    Well, how many guns has it confiscated from cretins carrying them on the street and likely to use them at some point????

    Your statement is stupid, anon.

  • well, this thread was a sh*tshow.

    carry on

  • Quick poll….

    How many on this thread have been stopped and frisked, or were with people that were stopped and frisked, or had their children stopped and frisked?

    I’d like to hear from those with a practical view point. I suspect that it may differ from the existential view point

  • Can’t we just amend stop and frisk to require that an equal number of white people be stopped for every black and latino person? I would start by stopping and frisking anonlurker, DIBS, brklynmind and, brownstoneshalfoff.

  • I posed the poll question because the patriot act was widely supported as long as the targets were “others”. Snowden’s data dump revealed that the targets were everyone, and there was an immediate call for review.

    I listened to a group of mixed young people discuss this, and their viewpoints were interesting when they witnessed or experienced being stopped, questioned, and frisked. They felt they were viewed as criminals, not young people.

  • Anyone else notice that ‘The Daily Show”s recent ‘Citi Bike’ segment–at least the BedStuy portion–was taped directly across the street from the park? Flex that muscle, citizens. I lived 2 blocks from there (since have changed coasts), for 3 years. Police Commissioner Kelly made a brief appearance at the 81st Precinct up the street last weekend for a potluck. Ironic, both. Someone alert the media, please. I will, but shuffle 2 jobs (and absolutely love this particular area of BedStuy, looking to move back soon) so am lacking time. Cheers.