Endangered AY

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This morning the Times has a couple articles about Atlantic Yards that more or less boil down to the following: Aspects of the mega-project aside from the Nets arena are likely to be delayed or go unrealized; Forest City Ratner has not been able to lure an anchor tenant to Miss Brooklyn, his planned office tower; and Frank Gehry’s overarching vision for AY will be severely compromised if all that’s built is the arena. In one article, Charles Bagli includes snippets of an interview with Bruce Ratner in which the developer concedes that construction of Miss Brooklyn will not begin until a tenant has been secured for the office tower; Bagli also notes that the three residential towers surrounding the arena, which are slated to have 1,000 units of housing—including many affordable units—may not happen anytime soon, since developers are finding financing harder to come by. Ratner still sounds cautiously optimistic about the first phase of AY, though. It’s not going to happen in a nanosecond, he tells the Times. I hope it’s not going to be drawn out. I’d hope that the first residential building will be done within six months of the opening of the arena, and a second one a year after that. In the second article, architecture critic Nicolai Ouroussoff says the possibility that all we’ll be left with is a Nets arena “feels like a betrayal of the public trust.” Ouroussoff calls on Frank Gehry to walk away from the entire development: “by pulling out he would be expressing a simple truth: At this point the Atlantic Yards development has nothing to do with the project that New Yorkers were promised. Nor does it rise to the standards Mr. Gehry has set for himself during a remarkable career.”
Slow Economy Likely to Stall Atlantic Yards [NY Times]
What Will Be Left of Gehry’s Vision for Brooklyn? [NY Times]
Ratner Admits Major AY Delays, Rising Arena Cost [AY Report]
Miss Brooklyn & Housing to Die as Arena Lives? [GL]
Bullet Points of Bagli Article [No Land Grab]
Photo by threecee.

0 Comment

  • This is an apocalyptic nightmare. Brooklyn needs AY more than ever. Please Bruce find a tenant fast.

  • I agree with Nicolai Ouroussoff: Gehry should walk away.

    Why should his architectural legacy be tarnished by the greed of a hack mega-developer that bullied everyone to satisfy his insatiable ego?

    Many of us knew this would happen long before the credit crunch. Ratner gets to build the profitable arena at taxpayer expense and the affordable housing will likely never be built.

  • I wonder: will all the anti-AY crowd be happy with this? For all their lawsuits they managed to reduce AY to the one component they hate the most, the stadium.

  • My prediction: As mentioned in the NY Times article. Ratner will build phase one. The phase two land will be sold off to a other developers to build the remaining portion. I prefer this scenario as competition breeds better development for the consumers dollar.

  • Hmmm, and all that Brooklyn is left with is a bunch of empty lots surrounding a stadium. It’ll be that way for 10 years. Thanks anti-AY people! Look at what you’ve done for us.

  • “I wonder: will all the anti-AY crowd be happy with this?”

    As a card-carrying member of the anti-AY crowd, I can honestly say “YES, I LOVE IT! I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT!!!!!

  • Anti-AY people have made it impossible to lure an anchor tenant and more difficult to secure financing?? Wow, they must be pretty powerful.

  • The Newark Nets has a nice ring to it. Hopefully Paterson will tell Ratner and Jay-Z to go see if the Prudential Center will let them play their games there.

  • H * E * L * L * O……!

    i thought the ny market was immune (HA)!

    ratner (AND gehry for that matter) should jump on the green bandwagon if they want to even attempt to rescue this doomed development.

    *that, and WHY THE ___ aren’t ALL of these new developments green?! greenest city my butt~!

  • What’s interesting here is the fact that lots of people in neighborhoods like Ft. Greene, Prospect Heights and Clinton Hill sold their properties in order to avoid AY’s eventual negative impact on property values. If the project gets derailed now in some serious way, those folks will have cashed in all their chips unnecessarily.

  • I wouldn’t blame the anti-AY people for this – it is the market.
    I do hope that somebody does get to build an office tower with a good tenant. NYC needs downtown Brooklyn to become an office area to compete with NJ. How many more buildings can they cram into Midtown and subways are too crammed going thru there.
    In the meantime – platform can be built over the train yards so will be ready for when market is ready for building.

  • Bruce Ratner – please allow me to introduce you to Bad Karma.

  • Even better: The Scranton Nets

  • How about fourteen 400 ft. high inflatable Bruce Ratners in place of the buildings?

  • fuck you all,
    Bruce Ratner.

  • build a park instead, many, many trees, fountains, sculptures, swimming pools, cafe’s ………..

  • The arena was always the carrot to draw in public support, mostly by drawing on some kind of nostalgic civic pride in Brooklyn having a major sports team again, and the promise of jobs.

    While the traffic and transit mess, as well as all of the other negative aspects of living next door to a Madison Square Garden will still be there, if the arena gets built, it’s still a win. No horrendous Miss Brooklyn, no need for eminent domain, no need to even tear down Ward’s bakery, although I think we lost that one, unfortunately. No overbloated, isolated condoland.

    No real affordable housing, either – I’m SHOCKED! Aside from temporary construction, no real jobs, either, as the office/retail component won’t be built as planned either. Again, shocked! Blaming anti-AY forces for these failures is ridiculous. It’s always been about money and power. FCR is a money making machine, and if there is no money to be made, all promises of community good go out the window, as they do what’s best for them. It’s that simple. It’s just business.

    Preservationista

  • It really is a shame that a few entitled nimbys go out of their way to sabatoge a great public works for Brooklyn. This set back is not a good thing for our city and the comments by a lot of these really old, over-the-hill people are out-of-touch with their peers.

  • so, what has develop don’t destroy achieved ? many people bought out many,people evicted many people …… for a fucking stadium!
    If they didn’t delay the all process by now things would have been built already and miss williamsburg would have been built as well, at least we would have had something interesting rather than just a stadium. can he build just the stadium?

  • “I agree with Nicolai Ouroussoff: Gehry should walk away.

    Why should his architectural legacy be tarnished by the greed of a hack mega-developer that bullied everyone to satisfy his insatiable ego?”

    Why because Gehry is as much of a hack architect as Ratner is a hack developer. Gehry’s legacy is to have designed the same schlock over and over. The greed of developers is about the only thing he has ever satisfied… as well as his own greed.

  • preservationista….
    if DDD didn’t start all this lawsuits, things would have been built already, so they have a big responsibility factor on this one!

  • 9:55 “Major sports team”? I thought we were talking about the Nets?

  • I don’t think Gehry should walk away, but I do think he should drop his pants and masturbate into Jon Butler’s mouth.

  • for all you idiots making comments on beloved NETS when the arena is built it will be probably impossible to get a ticket for them. if you don’t think this arena will add value to the surrounding areas of it your wrong , i mean don’t any of you people go to sporting events, concerts the circus anything at all?? or are you all going to see ballet at BAM or going ot another crappy art opening in DUMBO? not that theres anything wrong with that but there are thousands of people who like sports and arena events too. the arena will just give us one giant amenity to do stuff? am i the only one who sees it like that.

  • 95% of the people “against” AY were simply against its scale, the demapping of blocks, and the illegal use of eminent domain for what is far from “a great public works.”

    It is in my backyard and I own. If and when things get built, I want it to move smoothly so that we can get it over with, but nothing “would have been built already.”

    This was a 10-year project from the start that would certainly have taken longer anyway.

  • Fools destroy themselves. Nimbys that they are.

  • 10:21 – sports suck. i’d take ballets at BAM over a nets game any day. and incase you haven’t heard, art openings in dumbo are an endangered species…the gallery scene left more than five years ago.

  • I don’t know a single person who sold because of Atlantic Yards. (But I will admit I don’t know everyone!)

  • I’m all for the arena, but if you think it is going to help the surrounding area take a look at the area around MSG. Total wasteland with millions of bums sleeping everywhere.

    The bigger issue here is that Ratner’s inability to get financing will scare off lenders financing all the smaller condo projects. They’re going to start pulling out in droves and all those would-be towers will never happen–at least not until the next boom.

  • The Nets play in front of thousands of empty seats in Jersey for the same reason they will in Brooklyn. There’s not enough of a nearby business community that will buy tickets for corporate entertaining. Taking clients to the Garden makes sense for a NYC law or advertising firm. Taking them to Atlantic Yards doesn’t.

  • Karma indeed.

    Housing crisis or not, the affordable housing was always going to find a way to ‘fall through the cracks’.

    I agree with 9:54 — park, please.

  • 10:21 is right. Most of the anti-AY crowd is anti-AY, NOT development in general over the yards. This was simply the wrong project brought forth in the wrong way.

    9:34 So what if it takes another 10 years, if what is finally built is good? Do you not understand that whatever is built there will likely last 100 years at least? I’d like to see a worthwhile project go ahead tomorrow if possible, but keep in mind, when you’re talking land-use, neighborhood character, and development, 10 years is a drop in the bucket.

    And 10:00, only old people are anti AY? Really? I’m 34, and most of my friends are around my age or younger. The ones that I’ve discussed AY with are overwhelmingly anti-AY.

  • Anyone who doesn’t understand the power of BAM is an ass-hat!

    And blame here should be focused squarely on Ratner, in fact, this now potentially provides him with the convenient way out of affordable housing, as it was his plan all along to never build any. Too bad he owns the Nets because i’m sure they’d jump otherwise.

  • I’m a broker and sold at least one property because the owners were convinced there’d be some negative “AY Effect”. Other clients of mine mentioned the possibility and were obviously concerned about it, but their simply mentioning it doesn’t make me inclined to say that they were selling “because of” AY.

    On the other hand, I know one client who definitely did sell for this reason, and if there was one there were probably others.

  • It is clear now that Ratner should have hired Ghery to design his Atlantic Mall, and why the heck didn’t he build a tower at that site? It’s one of the ugliest buildings in Brooklyn and the density is unacceptable. That was basically his first big F-U to Brooklyn (one of many and more to come). People blaming anyone other than the Rat himself need to open their eyes.

  • Anyone who is going to have a huge construction site across the road for years on end is going to have the value of their property affected. Seems obvious. And don’t fret, pro-development folks, some big stuff will get built eventually. Times Square redevelopment was supposed to happen in the early 80s but got put off when the economy tanked, only to come to fruition in the late 90s when it there was huge money to be made and financing available.

  • And many people are not anti-all-development, they just think that what Ratner has built so far in Brooklyn pretty much sucks. I mean, MetroTech is a good example. I’m not saying it didn’t bring in revenue for the city, but it was designed to be DEAD after 6 PM and on weekends. And it is so totally boring and creates a deserted creepy area after hours. Atlantic Mall serves a purpose but is also ugly as sin.

  • If Ratner were building on his own land, with his own money, he could do twice the density with whatever schlock architect he wants, and I wouldn’t mind. It’s the corporate welfare and abuse of emminent domain that offend me.

  • the anti-AY crowd (I am proud to be one) had a much more commonsensical approach to what could be built in that area. ratner had no care for scale, or reality. Huge projets such as AY are long past their prime and usefulness. We need a much better approach to building housing than to subsidize mass warehousing of people into cold, psychologically numbing housing that is too large for the area, too expensive (Does anyone here think that the money ratner gets now will really be even close to enough over the long term schedule he has?) and too destructive. Outscale housing projects do not work. Mixed income housing in these projects do not sustain themselves- one group or the other leaves and it becomes much more monolithic.

    I have never known anyone who can afford luxury housing choose to live in a project with those who will be subsidized. Anyone who says different really doesn’t know much about human nature- all yoou have to do is read this blog to hear the air of entitlement and snobbery of those who think money makes them so much better and smarter and more deserving than anyone else. these people are not going to buy a luxury apartment in a project with section 8.

    And since ratner left himself an out on the affordable housing, more than likely it will never get built or be built somewhere far off site. But none of the pro AY people understood any of that. most of them just want a Brooklyn arena- how Roman Circus of you

    And as the articles show- this was all about the Arena anyway. All that money and disruption and dangerous conditions put on all the rest of us just for the Nets- a third rate team- I can’t decide who is more foolish. ratner for biting off more than he could chew, the state for even giving him all that money and tax breaks – which would have effectively canceled out any “benefit” to Brooklyn, or the pro AYers who fell for the false promises and took the very short view. Certainly the community groups who got greedy must be feeling more than a little silly. Not such a done deal now is it?

    bklynkitty

  • Context: FCR’s Metrotech was meant to take 5 years to build and ended up taking 14 years. So, sadly, this may not be as dead as many of us would wish.

    As someone who lives 2 blocks from the footprint, I’d LOVE to see development over the railyards and in the adjacent blocks. Just not the hideous scale of AY. And not using eminent domain. I’m also really pissed that they have already demolished part of the Ward Bakery and it seems unlikely the building can now be saved. Restored, it could have rivaled BAM and the Audubon Boat House in Prospect Park — both also terracotta buildings from the same era.

    Look, this is an incredible opportunity for the city and state to step in and re-envision the entire plan. Involve several developers, not just one; create a transparent political process, instead of imposing the will of “3 men in a room” in Albany; include some much needed public amenities like a recreation center; etc, etc. Do I believe that will happen? Not for a New York minute. Real estate, money, and corrupt politicians will subvert proper urban planning every time. Hey, that’s just the American way.

  • So we still get the lovely arena, huh? What a coincidence that this is the part of the project for which Ratner can reap the greatest subsidies and tax relief. And while we tax payers are busy handing him our hard-earned cash, let’s not forget that he’ll be raking in $20 MILLION A YEAR in naming rights from Barclays Bank for the next 20 years. Hey, Bruce, I want a piece of that $400 million. Pay me back what your government lackeys stole from me!

  • My wife and I were just wondering last night if the credit crunch would affect the Atlantic Yards project. We live near there and have hated how rammed down our throat the project has been (Brooklyn had no say in the final decision whatsoever), and how corrupt the entire process has been (Ratner owns the adjoining shopping mall and will see a huge windfall property value surge, etc.). Nevermind that it is (to me and many, many others) an absolutely hideous design, totally out of scale with the area’s brownstones, and with Gehry arguably being the last architect on earth anyone should want to design a fiat-imposed neighborhood (some of his cultural institution buildings are arguably great, but “Miss Brooklyn” is an atrocity).

    Furthermore, of what benefit will the stadium be to the neighborhood? Madison Square Garden is an absolute blight on Manhattan, and the analogy is the same: arena, train station, major traffic juncture. The area will be riddled with tawdry sports bars and junky stores, and the streets littered with trash, nevermind the drunken fans spilling out into the streets after the games. Ouroussoff has it right, the arena without the development will be an unmitigated cancer on the neighborhood.

    This is the logical outcome of crony capitalism: utterly corruptible from the outset, the process is likely to leave the area even worse off than it is now as a scar across Brooklyn’s face. The entire project as conceived was from the very start nothing but an economic multiplier for Ratner’s holdings (he also owns the Nets as well as the adjoining mall), and there is nothing (and has never been anything) to prevent Ratner from subdividing the property should he feel that he will not earn sufficient lucre otherwise. This project is sour through and through; hopefully none of it happens and the entire thing is redone democratically.

  • I’m sorry, but Develop Don’t Destroy didn’t evict anyone, or tear down anything. To blame anti-AY people for this debacle is to blame the passengers on the Titanic for the ship sinking.

    As has been said, the vast majority of anti-AY people, including myself, welcome sensible, legal development in the area. This has been an overblown, underhanded operation from the start, beginning with the MTA ignoring a higher bid for the yards, through massive give backs, tax incentives and public funding of a private operation, the whole affordable housing and jobs bait and switch, and the total lack of consideration of infrastructure, services, transportation and public benefit.

    That’s not middle aged NIMBYism, it’s just common sense. Let someone with a scaled down, sensible plan for much needed development do this, not some grandiose, meglomaniac developer and his ego driven starchitect. Brooklyn does deserve a world class arena and world class housing. We also deserve to be able to show the rest of the city and the world that we can build a major project in a legal, above board manner that addresses the concerns and needs of all of Brooklyn. This isn’t it.

    Preservationista

  • This is the best bit, from the Times’ architecture critic: ” Visitors arriving by subway would spill out into a multitiered glass atrium; directly above, the voluptuous curves of Miss Brooklyn would be a counterpoint to the nearby Williamsburgh Savings Bank tower — a classic stone phallus.”

    Hot building-on-building action!

  • hey 10:38 that third rate team you say did go to the NBA championships 2 years in a row this decade. as a season Nets ticket holder the reason the Nets do not draw at the Meadowlands is because it is impossible to get there and has no public transportation. i did not say BAM wasn’t good for Brooklyn i said not everybody wants to go to see ballet and modern dance. as for most of the art galleries dying in Dumbo perhaps maybe there is no demand for them. So let me get this the Nets who sell tickets as low as 10 dollars, next to a huge african american population and jewish guys who love basketball will not draw and have thousand of empty seats. i guess no one from Long Island will come either because its one block from the train station either. you go to the Ballet, if i can get a ticket i will go so Radiohead in a brand new arena 1/2 mile from my house. Oh and if you havn’t noticed i think the NBA does a little better then the Ballet when it comes to attendance and people watching.

  • The arena all Ratner should have tried to build in the first place. It’s pure gluttony and greed he had to seize everything around it using eminent domain. If all he’d been given was just the land for the arena, the FREE MARKET and private property landowners surrounding it would have determined what followed the arena after its establishment. Based on what people wanted and what people needed. Whether that’s retail or housing or office space or what. Me, I think only retail can succeed there. Nobody who moves to Park Slope would live in a highrise with views of a sports arena and the LIRR/Atlantic Center. Try highrise next to Prospect Park. Or a highrise next to the East River. Why don’t they know this?

  • DUNG DEAL

    YEAH BOYEEEEE!

  • Daniel Goldstein for Mayor of Prospect Heights!!

  • and while im at it i would like to post all day im off today and going to watch the NCAA basketball tournament which im sure will never be hosted at the Barclay Center (yes the arena has a name). im sure they will never host it at the Barclay Center except its been hosted at nassau and the Meadowlands. and i’m sure it will have thousands of empty seats….just like the Nets, Radiohead, Bruce Springsteen, Jay-Z all will too when they play there. go see Merce Cunnigham and the ballet and listen to NPR. And again not that seeing the ballet or listening to NPR is bad its just pretentious NIMBY asshats like yourself and others always think that sports and pop culture suck. This is why america looks at you as “cultural elitists.” Am a liberal and i think the same way about you. go down to your basement and make some crap painting, and you can discuss it at some overpriced brunch place that makes you feel good about yourself.

  • “Fools destroy themselves.”

    A fitting Ratner epitaph.

  • Time for your meds, 11:53 (#2).

    Who knew they had wi-fi at Bellevue?

  • Um … this is bad. The arena by itself is going to make the neighborhood go to hell. Visit some areas in New York with stadiums nearby. Desolate at night, dirty, and frequently dangerous. At least if the whole project happened there would have been tons of new residents and businesses to keep the area alive. It would be better to do the whole thing, or not to have started.

  • I’m no cultural elitist but I don’t feel like seeing my tax dollars go to the ego-driven private owner of a basketball team who you don’t even care enough about to go the the meadowlands because- you whine- it’s impossible to get to. So why did you get season tickets? frankly you’re a little touchy about the nets and are making an awful lot of assumptions about me and who I am. Bruce- is that you?? Just so happens I do like sports and concerts and other stuff besides the “cultural elitist” arts- you could use a little in your repertoire by the way- I don’t have a basement, love Springsteen and Merce Cunningham. See- you can have it all artistically speaking- you just don’t know how. Enjoy the Nets- have a nice trip out to Jersey.

  • If people want to spend their money on pop music and spectator sports, that’s their business. But it’s been amply documented that the arenas that host this type of entertainment do not make for good urban neighbors, and government subsidies for them are a money loser for the public.

  • Actually, 11.12, although I’m sure we agree on many things, you are just plain wrong about combining subsidized with luxury. It can work and does not necessarily discourage market rate people from buying or renting. There are many luxury towers in Manhattan that are 80/20. In those buildings there are very rich people living alongside middle income families. I know a family who was in the “20″ and they were treated just like everyone else. Both parents work and they were not Section 8. At one point, Ratner was talking about 2,250 units of “affordable housing” but that was divided into different income levels (“Band Five” families can have income up to 113K for four.)

  • JZ is a Ratner tool. F*** em all. Build a park! And can these fools open back up the Carlton ave bridge? Im sick and tired of doller vans and Hasidic buses zipping thru my block for short cuts.

  • Beginning to sound like the election candidates barbs. Where’s the sensible REAL issue?

  • There is no new construction financing today. None. That was the fist shoe to drop. The second shoe will be the drastic fall of existing home prices. It is part of the normal boom and bust cycle of NYC real estate development. Nothing new at all. This project will get underway again in two to four years. How long did it take Metrotech to reach critical mass? Twenty years?

  • Nice story on Good Friday. I think this is trial ballon on exit-strategy. Atlantic Yards is dead in the water (including stadium) because if the current credit crunch. If you take a look here http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates/index.html and look at the short end of the yield curve, you will see people are running to safety. Investors don’t want any type of debt but US Treasuries. This is bad for Mortgage Backed Securities, Municipal Bond and other forms of debt. Ratner sees the writing on the wall and thinking will I get caught with my pants down? Like I said before the NETS will be playing in Newark NJ here in 2012 http://www.prucenter.com/ not in Brooklyn.

    The What (Tick… Tick… Tick…)

    Someday this war is gonna end….

  • Fools only destroy themselves. Including the fat Rat.

  • The 12:01pm poster and the NY Times’ Ouroussoff are dead-on. If Ratner builds only the arena, it will be a disaster for the area. So now the pols must step in and decide: stop the arena, stop the demolitions, and open up the site to other developers for a reasonable, rational new plan.

  • The one thing you can be sure of is that what people are doing today with their money is not going to be what they will do two or three years from now. I agree that there is no money today going into mortagae backed securities or speculative development but it is not forever, I understand that some can only look ahead a day or two at a time and therefore a year seems like infinity to them, but if you look at the big picture, busts come and go. Money flows one way, then stops, then flows another. On Good Friday it is wise to think about one’s mistakes and failings and to reflect on the cycle of death and rebirth. It all comes around.

  • Projects as ambitious as this one invitably get delayed and undergo changes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply naive.

    DDDB and the other NIMBY-driven groups have nothing to do with this delay, which is entirely due to larger market forces. Daniel Goldstein, Patti Hagan, etc. would love to take credit for this, but since their goal is to stop, not delay, the project, their efforts will be in vain if any version of the project gets built (which will happen, only later than originally planned). In the end, this is a DELAY, not a termination.

  • The arena can be good or bad. The MCI center in DC has done good things to the surrounding area. Same with Coors Field and the LoDo development in Denver. The area aroudn Wrigley Field in Chicago is great, but not so much around Sox Park.

    I opposed public subidies for AY, but thought the stadium was the best part about it. At least it’s something people can enjoy. Hopefully it’ll have good foot traffic, which is key to the successes of the arenas above, but I’m skeptical about it, looking at the footprint.

  • “I wouldn’t blame the anti-AY people for this – it is the market.”

    Acutally, the strategy for all these lawsuits is to drag things out until the market changes. That was the goal from the start, and if in the end they lose the lawsuits and yet defeat the development, it will not be by accident. Blame or credit is a matter of perspective. But DDDB set out to kill the project by stalling, and succeeded.

    In this case, however, they might have saved Ratner’s rear. Imagine if he had started construction a year ago and finished in a collapsing market. He’d have lost a mint.

    As it is, he’ll be back to the city and state for more subsidies for the arena in exchange for giving up ownership or part of it, and the arena will be a public auditorium for which the use of eminent domain is not controversial.

    The area right around the arena will be redeveloped in the next upturn.

    And the rest of the site will remain available for other uses.

    Not a bad outcome from Brooklyn’s point of view, unless you were a possible occupant of the affordable housing. IMHO that should have been the plan all along.

    As for Newark, the Nets would be playing there now if affluent suburban Bergen County hadn’t killed the Newark arena the first time around, prompting the former owner to sell to Ratner. The state later turned around and built the Newark Arena, promising Bergen Xanadu, but it was too late. Or perhaps not. We’ll see.

  • AY is Dead! I propose a public swimming pool, an open green market, and a park for much less than $$$millions.

  • The new highirse will be called Miss Crooklyn.

  • There are a lot of Soviet-era planners on this blog. “build a pool, a park”. Who exactly will build it? The Kremlin? This ia
    a private-sector economy. The parks department doesn’t have the money to even maintain historic parks such as Central Park and Prospect Park so private philanthropies have stepped in to do it for them. The State of NY is broke. Unless the sheik of Bahrain decides to move to Clinton Hill and build a large pleasure palace above the LIRR tracks, the development there will need to make money.

  • exactly 1:23 let me use my tax dollers for what I see fit. A park on stilts directly over the railyard with a batman pole smack in the middle.

    the arena idea is stinks

  • This might of been a good thing had it happened two or three years ago. Now if the stadium is all that happens, then the area will probably be crap for awhile, and the rest of this project, or proposals for others will probably drag on for many years.

    I know alot of people didn’t want this, but a half done project during a downturn is usually bad news. Really Bad News. A previous poster mentioned some nice stadium projects, but many of were built to revitalize crappy areas right? So, in that type of situation, the local government usually puts an inordinate amount of resources into building up and protecting the area. NYC is in a recession, alot of Wall Street has been / is getting / is about to get laid off, the city is cutting police presence back to early 90′s levels, I could go on.

    Maybe its not good for a large central area of the borough to sit half constructed while developers figure out what/if they want to or can do anything with it for 5 or 10 years or more.

  • Very astute comments, 12:56. I disagree that DDDB has succeeded, as the project is not yet dead, only delayed. But your prediction that they might have helped Ratner is very feasible. I suspect that this might buy him extra time to get this thing done right.

    The main drawback is that we’ll have to endure more long-winded Norman Oder posts, silly marches, doomed lawsuits, and baseless declarations of imminent victory from the rich, stay-at-home NIMBYs.

  • Let’s see
    1 Billion to Ratner for a basketball court.
    800 million to Stienbrener for a baseball Field
    300 million to the mats for another baseball Field
    200 million to the Dolans for a Hockey rink.
    30 billion to Chase Bank for nothing
    And we are in a fuckin’ depression

  • Like the Bushies someone’s running this town to the mud.

  • We’re not in a depression, don’t be a twit.
    Take a double doze of your prozac and go for a walk in Prospect Park. Some day you’ll get a job and you will feel much better about yourself.

  • My big question is: Where is Bill Thompson? As Comptroller, he’s supposed to make sure the City doesn’t waste its money. The City has already thrown tens of millions of dollars down the hole subsidizing Ratner, and he didn’t see any of this coming.

  • GOD BLESS! THIS IS GREAT NEWS!

    This project was doomed from the start and the local residents were overwhelmingly against the scale of this monstrosity with no local input to begin with. There were empty lots when we chose to live here and happy to have lots of empty lots for years to come.

    Go build AY in you backyard if you want. Leave ours alone!

  • “Maybe its not good for a large central area of the borough to sit half constructed while developers figure out what/if they want to or can do anything with it for 5 or 10 years or more.”

    Hey, the area has gone undeveloped for decades, so what is another 5 or 10 years?

    “Go build AY in you backyard if you want. Leave ours alone!”

    Speak for yourself. I own in Prospect Heights, so this project IS in my backyard and I am looking forward to it being built, even if it takes longer than originally planned.

  • the guy is just plain greedy. He can reconfirgure his mall and use the skyscapper to the left of the clock tower for his retail and new jobs. The arena idea was cover up for his overall plan.

  • WTF, are Mr. B and his minions on vacation (apologies if there’s sickness afoot or something)? Only two posts and it’s 2:30 already? Oh well, I suppose this thread will keep going all day with the same tired, reconstituted, and largely close-minded, arguments pro and con AY.

  • johnife: In some countries (including the one you hail from), today is a public holiday. Maybe brownstoner and his gang are driving out to PA to paint easter eggs with grandma?

  • johnife: It’s Good Friday – stop cursing!

  • It’s Good Friday – stop cursing!

  • F— you! and Jesus, too!

  • The bond and stock markets are closed; schools are closed; opposite side of the street parking is suspended etc… Not many folks in front of their computers – that may be why it’s so slow.

    Monday is going to be a freak show on here – bloggers will be back needing a fix badly….

  • John Ife, you can go fuck yourself. You’re the one who jumped all over some poster some months ago who alerted readers to structural problems with an open house pick. What a fool. We need more people like that poster on this blog and fewer like you. You’re an asswipe.

  • Nice, sunny day out there.

    Just got back from a stroll down Fourth Avenue.

  • The real problem with AY was not that ratner wanted to build, but the size and the scale. I’m sorry but anyone with half a brain would have foreseen that a project of this size was way way too much, and if someone like myself could see big financial problems for this 2 years ago, how come the big muckety mucks in the government and finance didn’t?

    12:15- I’m sure you’re right about buildings that share incomes but Ratner promised affordable housing which also covered true lower income levels, and would have been subsidized housing. Acorn and the Rev. Daugherty were not fighting for people making 113,000 a year (and frankly if someone needs housing subsidies on that kind of money, they need a reality check) but for people making far less. That block of affordable housing he set aside was a real disappointment to the community activists who put themselves on the line for AY. I don’t feel too sorry for them- they blew their credibility. And the reality is AY was to have been a community- architecturally speaking, intentionally or not, it was designed to close itself off from the surrounding community, and that is a very different dichotomy from luxury buildings in Manhattan which are mostly single buildings or a group ranged along a block. Of course there are exceptions- tudor City is a fabulous place but I don’t know if it is mixed income or not.But AY would have been a ring of huge buildings, with interior spaces. I don’t see CEOs walking home at night through them on a hot summer night when everyone is outside, playing ball and boomboxes. Ratner promised public park space- luxury tenants demand security. Unless he was making AY a gated community, how was that going to work? Have its own, publically subsidized police force? Sorry- i just don’t see how it could work.

  • I’m a little late to the party, here, but I just want to point out that the arena needs eminent domain to happen. Dan Goldstein’s apartment sits right about where center court would be. So there’s no such thing as having the arena sans eminent domain, unfortunately. Not that I want the arena to happen anyway.

  • My advise to Dan Goldstein and others who are perenially disappointed is that if they wish to live in a quiet, never-changing environment where things always remain as they have always been, they should move to rural Maine or to the western tier of New York State.
    New York City will always disappoint because everything is always changing here. It has been that way for three hundred fifty years and it shows no sign of let up. If you don’t like boats, do not live in Venice. If you do not like change and large modern buildings, do not live in New York City.

  • doofy?

    how old are you?

  • Nicolai Ouroussoff had has head in the sand if he was thinking about anything visionary from Ratner. The track record speaks for itself. Metrotech + Atlantic terminal sterile and lifeless. So, not exactly shocking that AY will turn out the same way.

  • Nicolai Ouroussoff had has head in the sand if he was thinking about anything visionary from Ratner. The track record speaks for itself. Metrotech + Atlantic terminal sterile and lifeless. So, not exactly shocking that AY will turn out the same way.

  • I think there are 113 people in the country who read Ouroussoff. He is a non-entity. I am an architecture fanatic and even I don’t read him.

  • 100. Slow day. Had to do it.

  • i guess we can put this at the top of the to-do list for the rebound phase. hopefully at least some of those who were primarily responsbile for pushing delays to this point will have to live admist the stalled drawn out construction.

    now instead of demo and then new development, you’re going to have demo, empty construction sites for who knows how long, then eventually that same new development. thanks for benefiting the community.

  • The same day that the Times ran the article about AY, it ran an article about huge budget cuts in the same system. Any rational person would want to know why we can’t support our schools but have $2 billion to underwrite the Nets and Ratnerville.

    This is a great day for Brooklyn. Now let’s hope something appropriate for the area gets built – with a lot less of taxpayer money.

  • great day for brooklyn? i don’t understand you johnny – you move here just as brooklyn is approaching the explosion of its resurgance and all you want to do is kill it. ask the people who grew up in bk during the 40s and 50s and held things down here during tough times of the 70s and 80s whether this is a good day for brooklyn? you come here and benefit from the work these people (my parents, my grandparents) put in, and now you want to deprive these same people of the fruit of their resilience. you disgust me.

  • Sounds like ^^somebody^^ bet on the wrong horse.

  • Ay is the fruits of their resilience?? A dose of reality here, Brooklyn love- your parents and grandparents will see little to no benefit from Ratner’s overscaled, misbegotten project except to see their tax dollars lining his pocket. Or did you honestly think he would hand out affordable housing to those who have lived here for decades and “held things down during the tough times?” If so, you’re much more naive than you think. AY is all about ratner- any possible revenue benefits will accrue to him for so many years AY will sink into the ocean before NYC gets anything for all the money we gave him. Wake up- AY is not about bringing anything to Brooklyn other than rich Manhattanites who can’t find housing there or want to pay less. If anything AY will cater to people who see Brooklyn as a compromise, not a first choice.

    Oh wait- yes! A basketball team of our own. Yeah- and an arena- that’s all we need here in Brooklyn to make us world class. Note to self: Brooklyn has nothing to offer without the Nets. Yes- and without the Knicks where would Manhattan be?

    You don’t disgust us, Brooklynlove- you embarrass us.

    LovesBklynmore

  • “…why we can’t support our schools but have $2 billion to underwrite the Nets and Ratnerville.”

    God bless you, Johnny. Screw you, BK Love. Your parents/grandparents didn’t do shit.

    GREAT DAY FOR BROOKLYN

  • And still agreeing with Johnny- NYPD is facing cutbacks as well, as is the Dept of Sanitation, Fire, etc. Your grandparents and parents won’t appreciate the cutbacks in services as a reward for all the years they stayed.

  • Ourrosoff (or however you spell it) is a bit off his rocker in that Times piece, by turns suggesting we should scrap the whole project (yay!) and praising Ratner’s history as a developer… um, have ANY of Ratner’s projects EVER turned out as anything other than ugly, cheaply-built, watered-down versioned of what he promised he would deliver? This is what happens when the city hands out a boondoggle of a deal in which the developer’s risk is cut to basically zero.

    Atlantic Yards was, from the begining, a different beast than the rest of the development going on in Brooklyn. Maybe you buy a building like 110 Livingston and rehab it into fancy condos, or maybe you build one like the Forte… but either way you take on a certain amount of risk, and you have to create a quality product or it won’t sell. The development is measured on its merits in the open marketplace. But with Atlantic Yards the state has sold the land to Ratner cut-rate, and now he can do what he likes and he’ll walk away even richer than he already is, no matter what happens with the property and no matter where the economy goes. He’s got no strong incentives to really make something great, so he’ll make something off the cuff, ugly and without regard for the community, and it will take three times as long to do as he claimed it would. Note that the Atlantic Terminal Mall is STILL unfinished even as Ratner starts on the next project across the street; and note that the Atlantic Center STILL cannot find and keep a third-floor retail tenant (favorite line from back when Macy’s was there, from a salesperson: “oh no honey, we don’t have that – you should think of this not like Macy’s, but more like ‘Stacy’s’”).

    And what’s this about Ratner being able to sell off parcels of land to other developers?? The only reason that the use of eminent domain here was kind of okay (even if really not) was the argument that the AY devlopment as a whole was a public good which made the taking worthwhile. If the whole shebang gets sold to private developers, I would think that would allow de novo review of those lawsuits… seems to me the original taking should simply be voided if Ratner can’t bring the project together like he promised.

  • 11:24 – good post – I think one of the most important things is getting the ESDC out of the picture – AY not being a state project so that normal zoning and land use processes can take place. That was one of the worst things about the project – the over the top density, lack of any attention to the infrastructure – it would have overwhelmed the surrounding area – and it was possible because it was and ESDC project.

  • wake the F up. first of all, don’t give me this anti-manhattan people coming to brooklyn b/c half of the anti-AY save the world blow-hards on this blog came here from manhattan at some point b/c they had enough $$ to buy something nice in bk. what a bunch of s**t.

    and somehow you think ratner not building this is going to result in more money going to schools or affordable housing. you’re a dunce if you believe that will happen. money is not going into this now b/c there is no money to go into anything.

    regardless if ratner is getting some city money or no city money, he’s bringing new developemnt and new money into brooklyn. this is the way the schools get better. how the hell do you think 321 got to where it is now? and for those who bitch about atlantic center and metrotech, you represent the vast minority of opinion and i’d like to know if you prefered what was there before. do you even know what was there before? did you live in either areas before the developments? i’d say maybe 1% of the anti-AY crowd did, probably less.

    and f**k you if you say my parents and grandparents didn’t do s**t for the borough. where the F were you when they were putting their kids through the schools here, spending their money here, participating in efforts to fight crime here, and putting time and money into building the very commuinty facilities that you take for granted now. go to hell.

  • My point, Brooklynlove (and I am not the one who made the nasty comment about your parents/grandparents doing sh*t) is bit that manhattan people are coming here but what you seem to perceive as the so-called big benefits. New development is not always GOOD development. and the amount of city money ratner ws getting hardly qualifies as SOME, but as quite a bit. Not to mention the sweetheart deal he got on the Atlantic yards rights. Money that should have been used to better public transportation- except Ratner didn’t have to pay very much because he has buddies. He was’t bringing money here so much as taking it and spending it. I have no idea where you get your ideas from, but prating the same old look at what this project will do for Brooklyn has nothing to so with the reality. AY is a lot of smoke and mirrors- you haven’t been reading the papers if you still believe the promised affordable housing would happen in AY. If he was really going to build that, why leave himself a huge loophole.

    Look at the numbers- by the time we finish paying through the nose for whatever part of AY actually gets built, the money we are supposed to be seeing will have long been spent. You can’t use public money and tax breaks and then say AY is bringing money back in. When, where, how much?

    I also wouldn’t make all those assumptions bout who is AY and who isn’t.I live in Crown Heights- and my community will be very impacted. And again you miss the point of AY- it was not about Brooklyn- it was about being little Manhattan. One of the big pluses that they push is that Brooklyn is cheaper. Not all the wonderful things about it- that it’s cheaper (er…more reasonable). think I’m wrong? A poster on B’stoner mentioned a friend who quite his job with the Mayor’s office after hearing the Mayor boast that in a few years there would be no one living in Manhattan who earned less than 100,000 a year. frankly I can think of a lot things to be proud of in life, that’s not one of them. FYI- I used to live in Manhattan, years ago and moved to Brooklyn because I fell in love with it.I lived through the tough times here too and I still think AY was a crap idea for that area, but not because I didn’t want anything built. Because it was a rotten plan.

  • I’m thrilled with this news. I’m not anti AY overall, but I am anti-skyscrapers and anti-traffic congestion. An arena would be so much fun to take my future children to, but a bunch of skyscrapers and traffic? No thank you.

  • You all sound like the blind men fighting over whet the elephant looks like.
    Sad! Sad!

  • Have any of you put together a development project of this scale? or any scale?

    Run the numbers, find investors, buy the land and build something. Make it happen.

    Developers are just people like you, and they are mostly using other people’s money to get stuff done.

    If you can find a way to buy and build and create and profit, you will get investors. What you are witnessing now is a funding problem. (why is too long to go into hare, Look it up)

    Maybe Ratner is not as good as you.

    Give it a try!

  • We understand the funding problem, believe me. So let developers use other people’s money- private investors. Not public funds for private projects. If an investor chooses to put his money into a project, he also accepts responsibility for any loss. giving public funding takes away choice, responsibility and benefits away form the taxpayers while we still lose. The benefits ratner and you talk about are primarily for Ratner- and that’s fine so long as he is not using my money. And oodly enough there are plenty of developers doing great things without relying on big public funding or eminent domain.

    I don’t want to invest in an arena when schools, cops and firefighters are losing out. When we can’t get health insurance and reasonable medical care. My friend went to the emergency room. No insurance. they charged her 478$ for a pap smear alone. So why should my money be used to fund people who don’t need it when my friend gets charged over a $1000 for an emergency room visit where she saw a doctor for a total of 15 minutes, got charge exorbitant amounts of money for tests she didn’t agree to and the doctor tried to hit on her. Brooklyn Hospital- don’t go there.

  • DDDB & Daniel G. are selfish ass smelling fags! They fart in wine glasses and then sit and smell and commentate how good it is. The Arena will be built, they accomplished nothing but a worse project, basically spitting in their own face :) to poster 4:08pm, your friend shouldn’t fuck dirty guys maybe then she wont need all those expensive tests and a paps mere.

    Peace out!

  • So after reading through 115 posts, I’m still trying to figure out…what exactly to people propose “they” build in that location. I’m not taking sides either way, but seriously its easy to be a critic, a pundit, a nimby, but let’s here something constructive. What should be built? More Brownstoners? Who would be able to afford that…hmmm, my guess more former Manhattanites like Goldstein and his crew of gentrifiers

  • Somebody should clip Goldstein…end of story

  • Let me say this, as a Manhattan transplant that is actually Pro-AY. I have lived in Brooklyn for the past 10 years, not because I can’t afford Manhattan, but because I CHOOSE to live in Brooklyn. For me, the appeal of Brooklyn is obvious, much less of a concrete jungle, parks, trees and a real sense of community. At the same time, my view towards AY and much of the downtown brooklyn development is that increase services and amenities is a net positive. The fact that Ft. Greene (where I live) does not have one decent grocery store (not at all a luxury amenity, but a basic necessity) is absolutely ridiculous. We all know (or should know) that Brooklyn has been severely neglected from a public infastructure investement perspective and a private development perspective for 100 years. The fact that the government and private investors are seriously focused on investing in Downtown Brooklyn can only be viewed as a net positive for the entire borough.

  • BrooklynLove I don”t think you have the connection to Brooklyn, I believe you are fronting! I think you brought here because of the stadium and potential of the neighborhood. Now you and others are seeing you dreams getting crushed! Atlantic Yards is fucking DEAD! Goldman Sachs was going to underwrite 2 billion dollars of bonds for this project but now have cold feet. Plus the city was going to give Ratner 2 Billion more. There is a big squeeze going on in the Muni credit markets. Investors don’t want anything to do funny debt. When they make the announcement the NETS are going to Newark NJ, the price of your “Brownstones” will plummet!!!! Unfinished construction will stop and leave urban blight for some time. Oh you guys are so fucked. RIP Atlantic Yards!!!

    The What (Tick… Tick…. Tick…)

    Someday this war is gonna end….

  • You know what, I finally figured it our (sorry, I’m slow)….The What is actually Daniel Goldstein…Hi Daniel! Someday this ends gonna war, right?

  • Since Ratner is so rich, he and his trust fund kids should just pay for the project!!! How about that?

  • 4:41, you add absolutely NOTHING to what is essentially, an intelligent exchange of opposing opinions. Accusing a woman (who din’t even involved in the discussion) of sexual nastiness, and juvenile, locker room potty mouth, homophobic nonsense makes you look like an unmitigated idiot. If that was your intention, congratulations, you are successful.

    Adults – carry on.

  • I hope you’re not anti-gAY. (gimme atlantic yards!)

  • So now you folks are giving death threats to some random guy blaming him for the economy? YOu can’t even state your name? You want to be a murderer mr. guest?
    F you, scumbag

    Ass smelling fags? Clearly they let 11 year old homophobes on the internet quite easily.

    Maybe we should build something where all you self righteous, homophobic, hate mongers can hang out and throw balls at each other, while ratner watches from the stands. Ass smelling fags? You need to take your meds and calm the f’ down.

    You all suck big time. I hope ratner does build then we will ALL be gone, cause you people just fucking suck.

    Go stick your tongue up Ratner’s ass if you love this stupid arena bullshit you fucking losers.

    If you don’t like us manhattanite move to brooklyn gentrifiers why don’t YOU move your pathetic asses BACK to manhatty and go live next to your butt buddy bruce ratner?

    They should build an asylum really, that is clearly what we need!!!!

  • “You know what, I finally figured it our (sorry, I’m slow)….The What is actually Daniel Goldstein…Hi Daniel! Someday this ends gonna war, right?”

    Yep, you are slow. I’m NOT DG! I take baths and wash my clothes. I’m a white Broker from Lodi NJ, LMMFAO!

    The What

    Someday this war is gonna end…..

  • Adults on brownstoner? that is a joke right?

    An arena? I thought this project was for a bunch of poor people to get affordable housing?
    - Bertha Lewis

  • You are from jersey? you better bath!!!!

  • My prediction: As mentioned in the NY Times article. Ratner will build phase one. The phase two land will be sold off to a other developers to build the remaining portion. I prefer this scenario as competition breeds better development for the consumers dollar.

    DEAR FRIENDS THIS WAS ALWAYS THE PLAN!!!! BEST ECONOMY EVER, OR WORST. THIS WAS THE PLAN. RATNER COULDN’T CARE LESS ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING or THE DUMB ASS HOMOPHOBES ON A STUPID BLOG. KNOW THAT MUCH AT LEAST!!!

  • 5:42 “The What?” Thanks again Daniel!! I always look forward to your insightful comments on the economy, finance, local politics and foreign policy! It’s better than watching CNN. Thanks Daniel Goldstein!! A/K/A “The What”

  • The What said:
    “When they make the announcement the NETS are going to Newark NJ, the price of your “Brownstones” will plummet!!!! Unfinished construction will stop and leave urban blight for some time.”

    What total mental retard believes the entire reason for the huge changes and appreciation in values in Brooklyn over the last 20 years is because 2 years ago Ratner Rizzo announced his AY project? If Ratner isn’t the reason for the rise in values……then the failure of the project won’t cause any plummet in brownstone values. No logic whatsoever.

    The most hilarious part is the suggestion Newark NJ will recover from its downward spiral into the abyss because the Nets are going there.

    Why would you give a sh*t where people bought houses if it weren’t for your PERSONAL AGENDA AS A BROKER IN THE BURBS.

    Let’s not forget who The What really is. He was called out, there was clear evidence. Please search the archives and find one single post from The What were he says “we” about Brooklyn. Doesn’t exist. Because he doesn’t f-ing live here. Find one single post where he says anything specific about Brooklyn that indicates he’s ever set foot in Brooklyn. Also doesn’t exist. He only posts links to news articles. From afar way out in Jersey.

    Stay in your Jersey piece of crap ranchstyle house. Talk about a plummet in values.

  • The What is not Daniel Goldstein. The What is a broker in New Jersey and everybody knows it.

  • Despite what the NY Times says, eh 6:20? Because you know more than they do.

    At least in your own mind.

  • The Pathmark at Atlantic Whatever it’s called is a supermarket. What is Sat 4:54 talking about? They’ve even upgraded it, somewhat. You’d prefer a Whole Foods, I take it? I live in FG and go to the Pathmark all the time. Bogus argument. Where would you like it placed? Fort Greene Park?

  • Recession not a problem.

    ACORN can line up the financing for the housing.

  • To me there were two interesting aspects to the NYT article, neither of which have been commented on here. One is that the Times thought this this important enough to be their lead article–very unusual for any piece of NYC news. The second is that the source for the negative news about AY was ratner’s company itself. It seems to me that the claim that the stadium, at least, will be built is a last chance attempt to put a somewhat positive spin on funding for this entire project evaporating. I’d be very surprised to see anything at all built on this site for many many years. I suppose that’s good news, but some reasonable development of the Vanderbilt Yards site, by acompany more responsible and competent than FCR, could have been a good thing

  • look, in a perfect world ratner would not be getting public funding for this project, but the yards were never going to get developed w/o that. the yards are screaming for large scale grand development of this nature – nexus of max transit, nexus of major thoroughfares, nexus of multiple neighborhoods, major cultural institution, one of brooklyn’s most destinctive landmarks (wsb). ratner’s development would highlight all of the above and maximize its potential, not destroy it. before the dodgers left bk, lefferts was the place to be, but beautiful theatres have since been replaced by non-descript apartment buildings, and trolls spend their time on this site desparaging the area. in fact, ebbets was built in that area (the dodgers moving from washington park) due to the aclaim of leffets manor and crown heights. this is where the ballers lived back in the day. why would you not want this development? developers have finally realized the greatness of brooklyn and all people want to do is chase them away. anyway, we’re more likely to get the transportation inrastructure money, the school money, etc with this development here than w/o it.

  • If you can find a way to buy and build and create and profit, you will get investors. What you are witnessing now is a funding problem.

    Maybe Ratner is not as good as you.

    If Mr. Ratner was better at developing without having to pay off what were previously pretty well respected non-profits (who lost their credibility and good name in this process), if he could develop without skirting zoning and land use, if he could develop without sweetheart deals with NYC, if her could have done it without turning the bourough president into the butt public jokes, if he could have done it without seizing private property, if he could have done it without intimidating the people who live in and near the footprint, if he had any honor, morals or ethics, I might respect him, but this is not the case.

  • If the Brooklyn economy crashes, nothing will be built over the railyards for many many years. It’s expensive to build over railyards. They aren’t building on vacant farmland. The test of whether Brooklyn has arrived will be if the private/public developers decide it is worth it to build over the tracks. It may well turn out not to be worth it. At least not for years. That would be bad. All that money not spent on the boro. Can’t believe people actually would prefer nothing to happen. Nothing happened in the Boro between 1960 and 1990.
    Those were the bad years for those too young to remember.

  • There are a flock of black swans flying over Atlantic Yards! I still think it’s dead, over and kaput! I think people better worry about the economy! We have a long way to go!

    Black swan theory

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

    The term black swan comes from the ancient Western conception that ‘All swans are white’. In that context, a black swan was a metaphor for something that could not exist. The 17th Century discovery of black swans in Australia metamorphosed the term to connote that the perceived impossibility actually came to pass.

    Yep, “it’s different this time” is going to fuck up the ucktards who believe this shit! RIP Atlantic Yards!

    The What (Fuck you from Lodi NJ LMMFAO)

    Someday this is gonna end….

  • I’m not too young to remember — I’ve lived in Brooklyn from 1981 on. I loved it then and I love it now and that is why I am totally opposed to Bruce Ratner’s horror show that belongs back in Cleveland where he came from.

    And what magically changed in 1990 in Brooklyn pray tell?

  • I love when people try to “break it down” for the rest of us, like there is thanks.

    who needs meds when you can mouth off on brownstoner!

  • “And what magically changed in 1990 in Brooklyn pray tell?”

    much less crack

  • The emotion felt by some of us who have lived here many years as PH slowly became a better place to live was that we never got any public money, never any support from the government. It was individual families and small time landlords who renovated,invested and built the area up. There was no redevelopment money, no help. We were PS’s stepchild and at the end of CB8 which covers a swath of neighborhoods down to Ralph ave (I believe). Now, as we are perceived to have more value, slime like Ratner rush in and try to overwhelm PH with oversized, high density building, with no care for infrastructure or the quality of life of those who live here. He is just a businessman trying to maximize profits, but don’t ever think of him as a benevolent figure, or one who is trying to improve the life of the city -even with those ridiculous Gerhy buildings. He is scum and AY should not be built. Look to alternatives like Extell if you are in favor of development there.

  • Fuckin bitches bitchin’ about bigger boxes and little boxes but you all look the same. Build AY already. Guess twat people complained about the World Trade Center before and everything else going up, now you hate the big whole in the sky. even memorialize it. Hipocrates all. Boring weekend.

  • Fuckin bitches bitchin’ about bigger boxes and little boxes but you all look the same. Build AY already. Guess twat, people complained about the World Trade Center before and everything else being built, now you hate the big whole in the sky, even memorialize it. Hipocrates all. Boring weekend… Rattner’s kin

  • It’s a lovely sunny day out there folks. Go out and take a walk.

  • Brownstoner needs a spell check feature.

    you know you could build a school some stores and affordable housing and still have jobs…why on earth does errol louis think the only way to create jobs is to build a stadium over where other people lived? I mean really, can he be that stupid?
    Building anything would bring jobs, to think only building for ratner brings jobs…his ass is so far up Ratners. To say people who don’t like this idiotic project are people who don’t want others to have jobs…is like saying pro choice people hate babies.
    idyot!

  • The bubble has popped. It is raining balloon debris.

  • the bubble has just popped. true.
    now the fun begins!

  • open lots make great neighborhood garden plots.

  • I think BrooklynLove sums up the DDDb position nicely at 7:43 pm:

    “the yards are screaming for large scale grand development of this nature – nexus of max transit, nexus of major thoroughfares, nexus of multiple neighborhoods, major cultural institution, one of brooklyn’s most destinctive landmarks (wsb).”

    DDDb was the organization that found the highest bidder for the Vanderbilt Railyards, and the DDDb-crowd has spent years developing the UNITY plan, which fulfills BrooklynLove’s dream of a grand development.

    Bruce Ratner succeeded in creating massive controversy and getting $55 Million (and counting) of taxpayer to tear down existing properties without building a thing. Given that many other developers have succeeded in building large projects in Brooklyn, Ratner seems to be failing where others have figured out how to build.

    BrooklynLove, if you really want a project built, then it’s time to realize that Ratner is not the only one to do it.

    In any case, I’m glad that you agree with DDDb in supporting something great at the site.

  • “BrooklynLove, if you really want a project built, then it’s time to realize that Ratner is not the only one to do it.”

    i don’t disagree with your observation. but if not ratner then who? i’m looking for a specific realistic answer, not something that just sounds nice.

    i think that the economic return for a developer here could be great, but frankly none seem to be seriously interested. maybe the move is to pitch the hudson yards bidders.

  • “BrooklynLove, if you really want a project built, then it’s time to realize that Ratner is not the only one to do it.”

    i don’t disagree with your observation. but if not ratner then who? i’m looking for a specific realistic answer, not something that just sounds nice.

    i think that the economic return for a developer here could be great, but frankly none seem to be seriously interested, at least at this point. maybe the move is to pitch the hudson yards bidders.

  • “i don’t disagree with your observation. but if not ratner then who? i’m looking for a specific realistic answer, not something that just sounds nice.”

    Extell recently said that its bid for the Vanderbilt Railyards was serious, which I consider a specific realistic answer. Of course, the situation in the financial markets has changed recently.

    …But I have a feeling that you’re not going to like that answer. My preference was well represented by the UNITY plan, which is to get multiple developers for different parts of the area.

    The Atlantic Yards footprint was determined by Ratner, not by a transparent process. In other words, the developer said “jump,” and the ESDC said “how high?” I would like to see a development plan that’s based on the needs of Brooklyn, not of a private interest. Ideally, a plan that serves the interest of the public would also be profitable for a developer.

    But it’s important to remember that Ratner has not finalized his bid for the Vanderbilt Railyards. It’s still officially MTA property.

    So to give a full answer your question, I would need to know what area you are considering.

  • AY appears to be on the way out. There will be no stadium without the housing aspect. Ratner used that as a lure to get political support. Anyone who wanted to see this coming years ago could have. ACORN and other community groups need to do some major introspection and ask themselves why they sell themselves so cheaply and are so easily had. I hope they are enjoying those few jobs and office space in downtown Brooklyn – that is all they are going go get.

    The WHAT is on point. I read the site just to see his comments.

    Al

  • guest at March 22, 2008 4:08 PM

    Just another list of negatives.
    get off your ass and do something.