Murder Up in North Brooklyn, Down in South

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The number of murders in North Brooklyn spiked 34 percent in the first half of the year while just about every other comman center saw declines. There were 59 homicides in the Brooklyn North Command (which includes precincts 73, 75, 77, 79, 81, 83, 84, 88, 90, and 94) through June 10 this year, versus 44 in the same period in 2006 and 36 in 2005. The main cause? According to John Jay College’s Richard Curtis, it’s a rise in “disrespect shootings” by teens, which includes such death-worthy offenses as looking at someone’s girlfriend the wrong way, as someone did around the corner from our house last year. Of course, all parts of North Brooklyn are not created equal. While murders in Bushwick’s 83rd Precinct rose from 2 to 6 in the first half of 2007, Brooklyn Heights and Boerum Hill have none for the second year running. Street crime in those tony nabes has risen considerably though: Robbery is up 21 percent, assault 12 percent and grand larceny 4 percent this year. None of this is exactly news for real estate brokers to play up.
Surge in Slayings Shocks Brooklyn [NY Post]

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  • This is the single biggest NYC real estate story of the year. EVERYTHING in the city’s real estate economy is contingent on low crime rates, and the Murder rate is the single biggest statistic (since it is very difficult to hide, reclassify or otherwise fudge homicide #’s).
    If I was a property owner in Brooklyn North I’d be demanding that this be addressed immediatly.

  • Out of all the areas mentioned on this blog, which are in “brooklyn north”? Williamsburg?

  • “According to John Jay College’s Richard Curtis, it’s a rise in “disrespect shootings” by teens, which includes such death-worthy offenses as looking at someone’s girlfriend the wrong way”

    While one gets accustomed to hearing things like this, it still makes me shake my head. I mean, what kind of environment are these kids growing up in when they think it is OK to kill someone for such a stupid reason?

    Whatever the root cause, and I don’t know what it is, it needs to be addressed. When they shoot someone for those reasons, they will just as easily shoot someone walking down the street for fun.

  • The article makes a point that one probable cause is that prison culture is spreading to the streets. If that’s the case, why do we have a prison system that promotes this culture?

  • If you dont want be a statistic, don’t buy or rent in Bushwick, Brownsville, Bed-Stuy or East New York.

  • David, I know this is a real estate blog, but shouldn’t EVERYONE be concerned, not just real estate owners? I hate to tell ya’ll this, but our real estate investments aren’t the most important thing in life. And if it is…that’s pretty sad.

  • 10:23, neighborhoods mentioned frequently on Brownstoner that are in Patrol Borough Brooklyn North are Boerum Hill, Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO, Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy, Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Bushwick, Prospect Heights and Crown Hieghts.

  • 10:44 – or one could make the argument that the major drop in crime began when the incarceration rates started increasing tremendously.
    As long as a significant segment of the culture thinks “stop snitching” is a primary “ethical” lesson, we will have senseless crime and tragedy.
    IMHO it is government’s job to provide a safe environment to those (vast majority) who want to pursue life, liberty and ‘happiness’ and if that requires long-term incarcerations for those that refuse to respect the rights of others – so be it.
    But to get back to the Real Estate angle – the 2 largest factors in the Real Estate revival in NYC is low crime and low interest rates – looks like some sections of the city are going to be having trouble with both.

  • 10:56 totally true – I am just trying to stay with the RE angle of brownstoner and of course property owners have a large $ interest then a renter who is far more mobile – but regardless of whether your a property owner or not – of course this is one of the biggest factors in maintaing urban living as a viable option.

  • Always bad news to hear of crime increase in any area.
    But still need to look at longer term trends – not just ‘snap shot’ stats.
    What are crime rates compared with 2 years ago? 5 years?

  • You need to look at your individual precinct and examine the numbers. In mine, the 90th, the number of murders year-to-date has dropped from 2 last year to 1. A 50% decrease. There is an across the board decrease in every category of crime reported.

  • It’s also important not to get too hung up on percentange changes when you’re dealing with single digit statistics, where one event can shift the percentage change by 20% or 33%.

  • OMG, murders rose 300% in Bushwick!!! Sound the alarms, crank the sirens, shit on Bushwick!

    TWO murders to SIX murders. 100% of which were likely gang members. Excuse me if I’m just not shaking in my boots, and if I think blind murder stats are useless and to be ignored.

    And to say that New York’s real estate market is strong because of low crime and low rates is too simple. There are many factors which influence the popularity of real estate in a given city, but in New York’s case, it’s that it’s the center of the frickin universe. The jobs are here, the money is here, the art and culture is here. Unless there’s a nuclear war, that will continue to be the case, and it will continue to expand as population rises and housing fails to keep up with demand. A few more thugs catching a bullet will not change that.

    Besides, crime is still low.

  • East New York — I think it’s the 81st pct? — routinely has the highest murder rate in the city. it was highest last year. In the 80s it would get up to 110+ murders per year. So this is always going to tilt the numbers.

    For what that’s worth.

  • Jeremy – But the low crime rate has helped make NY the center of the “firkin universe” – no one was touting NY as the center of anything good in 1991.
    As for the stats – sure % can be misleading when you are talking about single digit increases but there is still a trend and as such becomes much more difficult to control once it becomes more widespread.
    That being said the idea that this is a ‘Brooklyn North’ problem is was off- the murder increases are essentially limited to 3 areas over the last 2yrs – BedStuy (only within the 81pct which had a 125% increase an in the 81; a 333% increase in Brownsville’s 73pct and East Ny with a 60% increase) – all other Brooklyn North Precincts have had essentilly no increase over the last 2yrs.

  • Brooklyn has always been dangerous.
    There are a lot of despertely poor people here as well as those who are third, fourth and fifth generation welfare recipients.
    People who buy multi-million dollar homes in Brooklyn must be a little in la-la land in terms of where they are moving. Some places are definitely safer than others, but it is still Brooklyn, which like the Bronx, has pretty serious social/economic problems.

  • Violent crime should be considered unacceptable in all forms in every neighborhood, even if it happens to gang members in Bushwick or East NY. As long as people allow for pockets of crime to fester, it will always grow stronger. The view should always be towards eliminating all crime everywhere as the goal.

  • Real estate agents can’t ‘play it up’. We’re not allowed to even discuss crime statistics; it can be considered a discriminatory practice. Customers are referred to local police precincts or the internet to research crime stats.

  • anon 11:33- if that were the case, the Bronx and Brooklyn would not still be home to hundreds of thousands of hardworking, working class people who obviously managed to make both boroughs attractive enough- through good times and bad- that those in upper economic brackets want to live there. And whether or not you care to believe it- Manhattan has quite a few serious issues of its own. Not to mention- if its so great why are so many people looking to live outside of it?

  • 11:33 – it is definitely more than just economic – for example the Bronx has the same poverty problems as the Brooklyn (actually as a ‘whole’ boro it is worse) yet YTD the WHOLE Bronx has the same # of homicides then E.NY + Crown Heights + Bushwick, Brownsville and Bed Stuy

  • As long as crime, even spiking crime, is perceived as being predominantly punk-on-punk (which is the case for most murders), I suspect that RE values won’t suffer much. Punks shooting punks, or even punks shooting the occasional unlucky hard-working neighboring kid, still exist in a reality far enough removed from affluent homebuyers to stave off panic. A big surge in muggings of middle-class or affluent people would actually do more damage.
    It’s also worth noting that, the lower the crime rate in raw numbers, the more easily a short-term statistical trend can arise from chance (as one poster alluded to above).

  • Brenda,

    I believe you are right–to an extent. I think a continued increase in murders would affect RE sales at the margins. For instance, Brownstoner mentioned a “respect shooting” going on around the corner from him. Personally, that would turn me off from moving somewhere if I knew it had happened–even though it might be totally irrational. But others like Brownstoner may not be bothered by it, or not enough not to buy in an area, and that’s fine too. It may take a few wimps like me out of the market, so you have somewhat fewer people bidding at open houses, but it’s hardly going to wipe a neighborhood out.

    But I do think if a gentrifier gets accidentally shot somewhere, all bets are off. Remember in the late ’80s / early ’90s when the yuppie got shot at a phone booth in the Village? I t became a kind of symbol for the dangerousness of NYC. Granted, you also had the whole crack epidemic of the time, the wilding phenomenon, etc.

    But the point is, one shocking, widely reported crime can matter more than statistics. As you say, “As long as crime, even spiking crime, is perceived as being predominantly punk-on-punk…” The key word is “perceived.”

  • I’m not in a gang, I don’t sell drugs and I don’t have to protect my ‘rep’. So i’m not really worried about being murdered.

    As a homeowner in the 88th precinct i am worried by the crime stats. In the past month robberies, felony assaults and grand larceny have increased!

    Houses are listing for $2 million plus in the 88th precinct, yet FG/CH is in the midst of a crime wave.

    I am more likely to be robbed, possibly with a weapon and have by stuff stolen than i was a year ago. WTF?

  • this is not news. people have been coming on and saying that clinton hill is dangerous all along. it’s the new residents that claim it isn’t so to protect their investments.

    can’t blame them really, but the numbers do speak for themselves.

    while things are a lot better than they used to be, i hear more than enough stories about friends and friends of friends getting beaten up to/from the subway to keep me on edge.

    yet everyone likes to talk badly about park slope, which is still, along with brooklyn heights, boreum hill and carroll gardens the safest of the brownstone neighborhoods.

  • “yet everyone likes to talk badly about park slope, which is still, along with brooklyn heights, boreum hill and carroll gardens the safest of the brownstone neighborhoods.”

    You mean “most staid and boring.” Get with the program.

  • BROOKLYN NORTH => SECTARIAN VIOLENCE

    TROOP SURGE ONLY SOLUTION!!!

  • This may be a bit inappropriate in terms of language but appropriate in terms of message…

    A statistic is like a woman’s bikini they show you one thing, but what is conceals is far more interesting.

    When considering these statistics one must look at the entire picture. I don’t think the sky is falling in Brooklyn as some readers have mentioned, but rather they seem to be short term anomalies that some times pop up in statistics.

    We must all consider that we do in fact live in an urban village. from time to time there will be an occasional crime. This has existed throughout out the entire history of man. Unless something unforeseen happens, crime is and will be a part of life.

    We, as conscientious citizens must try our best to thwart those that would like to disrupt our civilization. Nonetheless at the margins bad things will happen.

    As far as property values plunging, I doubt that that the “gentrifiers” will allowed their property values to plummet because of senseless crimes. When it comes to all things money related, people have a tendency to rise up and subdue those who might threaten their interests. We must remember the golden rule…he has all the gold makes the rules! In this case, it is the universe of “Brownstoners” who have the gold (at least on paper). They will create the “rules” to protect themselves.

  • Anon 1:40, you sound very silly. “Staid and boring” versus “high risk of assault” is an absurd straw-man construct. Frankly, the most dangerous projects sound pretty damn boring between bursts of gunfire. Everyone else, now I’ve bawled him out, please don’t be tiresome and reprimand him any further.
    And yes, Anon 1:04, you are correct: If we have 1 or 2 high-profile yup victims, the climate could change markedly. (And that could arise from nothing more than random statistical variance.) For all that, I can’t see the city as a whole ever sliding back to anywhere near the chaos I recall from the 70s and 80s; people (not just at the high end,either) just have too much at stake to cut and run.

  • Brenda,

    I am both anon 1:04 and anon 1:40. So, glad to see I’m batting .500. For the “staid and boring” reference, see Friday’s open-houses thread.

    And, I agree that I don’t see the city sliding back unless you have a repeat of the crack wars or ’70s urban blight (but who saw them coming either?). The point is, perceptions matter more than facts when you’re talking about market psychology and crime.

  • Elephant in the room: someone needs to help the young black community in the BK. Disrespect crimes = people so lost they need serious help. I don’t know what the answer is or the strategies needed, but this generation is going to be very very lost if a turnaround doesn’t happen STAT.

  • Very true, 2:21. This is a societal problem, and if I knew all of its root causes, and how to fix it, they’d be giving me a Nobel Prize. I don’t have very many answers. All I do know is that on some level, this becomes everyone’s problem, not just the problem of the black community, or those in the projects, or those in East New York, or the police, or however you want to box “Them”.

    We, as communities, need to find ways to reaffirm the value of human life. We need to give hope to these kids, so that they don’t think life is hopeless, and therefor worthless. People don’t want to hear it, but there is a spiritual emptiness in many of our youth, and there needs to be found a way to reinstill hope for themselves and the future. I’m not talking about religion, either, although if that works, fine.

    What can we do? If we have neither the time, skills or inclination to get in there and put in time, we need to find a program or group that works, and support it as best we can, money can do good things. We need to stop bitching and moaning that the schools in the hood suck, and see what we can do to make them better, by pressuring the city, the community boards, the churches, our elected officials, the PTA’s and parent groups, whatever. Nothing changes if we are complacent, or worse, use these communities we’ve moved into as hotels, where we sleep, but do all of our other living elsewhere.

    Chances are no one on this board will get shot by some kid, but feeling that this does not affect us, and therefore is not our problem, only reinforces for those kids, the perceived, and let’s face it, for most, – the truth, that their lives don’t have the same worth that “better” lives do. How can callousness and disregard help but to be a by product?

    Please note – I am not saying that murder is in anyway justified, or excusable, for any reasons, or that the predators who do exist should be patted on their heads for their misfortunate lives. I simply point out that if you choose to live in a complex community such as Bed Stuy, Bushwick, etc, know that, as Spider-man always quoted “with great powers comes great responsibilities” – with our new
    (relative) wealth comes the responsibility to help make our communities better places, not just for us and “our kind”, but for all. This is good for the soul, as well as for property values.

  • As far as the RE market is concerned. I think the time to buy in North Brooklyn is NOW. While crime is up, while the sub-prime market is collapsing, while the economy is unpredictable. If the house makes sense the reality is that Rents are still high, Cost of living is still rising and Brooklyn will always be Brooklyn, with the good and the bad.

  • When I first moved to Brooklyn I was concerned about crime, even though I was moving to one of the safest and most expensive neighborhoods. I bought a 2-bedroom apartment in a doorman building for $180,000. A year later it was worth maybe half that. That was 1990.
    Now that the boro has become so expensive, I don’t know if people still know that there is a real crime problem out there. When you spend millions on a house, perhaps you do not think of crime stats. But you should.

  • And we do love Brooklyn! And I agree totally with Brower park (gee- i wish I had said that!)- the relationship between the community and real estate values is too often ignored in these threads. But property values don’t exist in a vacuum. As they used to say, if you aren’t part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

    And one other thing- we forget NYC is not the only place with crime, nor od we often put the demographic breakdowns into perspective. NYC is not a microcosm of the rest of the country, and as such when those of us try to use statistics to explain or reinforce bias, it’s a gross injustice to everyone.

  • So the crime rate when up the most in the hottest real estate neighbs.

    Apparently, a lot of people would kill to live in N. Brooklyn.

    Just had to . . . sorry

  • Good Point Brower Park:
    I don’t want to be the one that says it. But I think the main reason why there’s so much crime in Brooklyn, especially with the young Minority community is because they live a Hip Hop lifestyle that revolves around violence. I grew up in Bushwick and Bed-stuy during the 80’s and 90’s even with the recent crime surge it feels like the suburbs compare to back in the days. I think these kids are a lost generation heading nowhere fast and they need help.

  • Denny (and others) if the problem was strickly “generational” or the “hip hop culture” it would actually be easy to fix. Unfortuantly, it isnt that simple – Despite these statistical spikes – NYC (and Brooklyn North) still has a very low crime/murder rate compared to other demographically similar cities/areas (2 very close ones are Philadelphia and Newark)

    and while NYC has some spikes in very discrete locations – most other cities (with similar generations and hip hop culture) have had huge increases in crime/murder over the last 2 years.

    So murder/crime increases in the 81 pct in BedStuy or the 73pct in Brownsville cant simply be based on some generational thing – when the same rate hasn’t moved at all in Crown Heights or the 79 pct in Bed Stuy, and has declined in the Bronx.

    It would be nice to be able to blame crime on some easy things like a ‘bad’ generation or lousy education but clearly the statistics at least point out that such simplistic analysis don’t pan out.

  • What kind of help? When this topic is raised, many acknowledge the need, and then move on and hope that someone else does the actual work.

    Of course, if you propose things like education, hard work, delayed gratification, marriage/partnership, etc. you are branded a conservative and dismissed.

  • I overheard a woman say that heroin is flowing into this country way more rapidly since “Bush started that crazy war”. Apparently, her neighborhood (far east village) has been overrun with junkies latetly. She believes that Afghanistan’s chaos is heroin industry’s boon.

    Now, i’m not one to blame Bush for EVERYTHING, but there may be something to that: the more focus we put on business that isn’t ours, the less resources we have to fight the business that is — such as weeding out the drug rings that supply gangs with their power.

    NYPD’s entire intelligence resources are zeroed in on anti-terrorism (as well as everything remotely politically subversive). What have they got left for fighting crime — and more importantly, fighting the sources of crime?

    There aren’t enough cops. The cops that we do have are quitting in record numbers both because of low morale and low pay. Time to bring the peace HOME.

  • 5:18 – As much as many of us may support bringing the troops home – statistically for NYC – the correlation isnt there. Since we invaded Iraq, the crime/murder rate has declined significantly in NYC. As for an influx of Heroin – its not something I have seen – but even if true – Heroin is grown in Afghanistan (not Iraq) and while there are people who may feel that that war is crazy also – I think most people (including the vast majority of our allies who have significant troops there) don’t think ‘that’ war was so crazy (given 9/11 and all), or are contemplating withdrawing troops.

    So while we may vehemently want to end the war in Iraq and keep our streets safe, falsely linking the two will probably do nothing to help either.

  • Sorry, guys, I may be having a bad day but I am getting the chills from this discussion when it starts dismissing crime when it is punk on punk or when we become fixated on real estate values and view the common good of our neighborhoods simply as a market variable. Thanks 2:21 and Brower Park – we lose our humanity when we think crime is OK for anybody. The reduction of crime is a form of liberation and it has served to be a key factor in the revitalization of Brownstone Brooklyn, but it is also something to be celebrated in and of itself. Separately, Brownstoner is correct in that the recent sharp drop in crime can cause a few incidents to skew the statistics. I can be thankful that in my own little universe the teenagers here allow me to give them a hard time.

  • Amen to that 5:18.

    5:10, you are, of course correct that education, hard work, etc, etc, would go a long way to curing these ills. However in order for those things to work, those programs/ideals need to work.

    It seems like every day on this forum the topic of good schools vs bad schools comes up. No one will argue that most of the public schools in the 81st precinct district are not what they should be. But what is our response on this board? “Don’t move there!!!” or “Be prepared to ship your kids off to private schools.” If the more well heeled in the community – old and new, don’t invest in local schools, nothing will ever change, and they will stay crappy forever.

    People with money have more power than people without money. Fact of life. Most people with money know how the system works, and have more access to knowledge, policymakers, and agents of change than people without money and connections. Another fact.

    Let’s not think that lower income people don’t care about their schools or their kids’ futures – most do. But often they do not have the wherewithal to organize, or to be effective in the halls of power. That’s what money and personal power can bring. We need a coalition of people who want to fix things – not just because it directly affects us or our kids, but because fixing them is the right thing to do for everyone. These groups exist, and do what they can, but they need our support.

    Same with jobs. We can’t expect a kid to get a good job if he can’t read. We can’t tell them to become something that will be a career – like a cop, for instance, if they can’t make ends meeton the salary offered.

    It’s a whole eco-system here, everything is connected. If we want to break the cycle of poverty in this city/country, we need, on a huge level, a true war on poverty. That’s the war we should be fighting.

  • I think a lot of this violence is the direct result of encounters with those damned Park Slope stroller moms.

  • I think it’s becuase of changing demogrpahics. Harlem had a horrific murder increase in 2006 and now it’s as quiet as Westchester. I predict the same will happen in Brooklyn North.

    Since wealthier people are displacing poorer ones, drug dealers and assorted other criminals hash out their issues before packing out. I think this is Brooklyn North detoxing itself.

    Ultamietly, crime will decline, everyone will be safer and hopefully the good times will roll on.

  • [i]amen to that 5:18

    5:10, you are, of course correct that education, hard work, etc, etc, would go a long way to curing these ills. However in order for those things to work, those programs/ideals need to work.

    It seems like every day on this forum the topic of good schools vs bad schools comes up. No one will argue that most of the public schools in the 81st precinct district are not what they should be. But what is our response on this board? “Don’t move there!!!” or “Be prepared to ship your kids off to private schools.” If the more well heeled in the community – old and new, don’t invest in local schools, nothing will ever change, and they will stay crappy forever.

    People with money have more power than people without money. Fact of life. Most people with money know how the system works, and have more access to knowledge, policymakers, and agents of change than people without money and connections. Another fact.

    Let’s not think that lower income people don’t care about their schools or their kids’ futures – most do. But often they do not have the wherewithal to organize, or to be effective in the halls of power. That’s what money and personal power can bring. We need a coalition of people who want to fix things – not just because it directly affects us or our kids, but because fixing them is the right thing to do for everyone. These groups exist, and do what they can, but they need our support.

    Same with jobs. We can’t expect a kid to get a good job if he can’t read. We can’t tell them to become something that will be a career – like a cop, for instance, if they can’t make ends meeton the salary offered.

    It’s a whole eco-system here, everything is connected. If we want to break the cycle of poverty in this city/country, we need, on a huge level, a true war on poverty. That’s the war we should be fighting.[/i]

    I feel for the victims of crime. I also feel for those who have to live in the neighborhoods affected by it.

    But then everybody digs up the same answer:

    [i]Oh, let’s hike NYS already confiscatory taxes to pay for yet more entitlement programs[/i]

    40 years of the “Great Society” have given us what? Higher crime rates that the Black community has ever experienced in it’s life time.

    I mean, I like section 8, food stmaps, “midnight basketball” and all, but the answer to the communites problems have to come from within.

    All this “Those evil gentrifiers” and “stroller moms” comments ignore one thing: It’s other black youth doing the killing.

    Every white and/or well off person could move out of NYC tomorrow and nothing would change. In fact, you’d be left with one big fucking Detroit. Is that what “the community” wants? Didn’t think so…..

  • I think the latest spike in violent crime has more to do with Meth and Heroin hitting the streets once again…

  • It’s really very simple. You’re all making it much too complicated.

    By now everyone understand that Atlantic Yards really is going to happen–which is just to say that everyone now understands that the entire area surrounding AY is going to go straight to hell. And that, of course, translates into ‘party time’ for the thuggish elements of our borough.

  • Maybe you can’t gentrify every place in Brooklyn. People moving to CH and getting mugged and saying why will never understand. I’m not condoning whats happening but seriously…Moving into poorer areas, boosting real estate values, is going to lead to more problems.

    Like Thompson gazelles on the serengeti being watched by the lions.

  • “Let’s not think that lower income people don’t care about their schools or their kids’ futures – most do. But often they do not have the wherewithal to organize, or to be effective in the halls of power.”

    Common sense- you are so ignorant of life and people in “poor” NYC neighborhoods that it’s appalling. You have no idea of the grass roots organizations that exist, the politicians who have come up from the neighborhoods, the political influence many of them are just now beginning to wield. Yes they need and want help but not from the likes of you with your Rudyard Kipling White man’s burden thing.

    And before you talk about No. Brooklyn “de-toxifying” itself you need to realize that drug dealers are all over the city- in plenty of rich white neighborhoods too. Who do you think buys half the drugs in this city? Those rich folk who can afford to. they keep the pipelines flowing, not just kids in the inner city. DOn’t think so? Some years ago there was a huge drug bust in Lower Manhattan- they netted a whole lot of dealers and users- mostly rich white Wall St. types. Never make the mistake of thinking the drug problem belongs to poor people or Black and Hispanic people. You can stick your neck in the sand but it’s the truth.Think we’d be left with one big f**kin detroit? Ah, there’s that North Carolina coming out in you. Take your set of white sheets and go home.

  • ” like gazelles on the serengeti being watched by the lions”.

    Frightening imagery, but unfortunately accurate in some areas…

  • Ohhhhhhh……I get it. Because it’s an African metaphor….Ohhhhh.

    Gee, not too KKK on your part, huh Bren?

  • /\Oh please, spare me.

    Yes, it’s not the communites fault many high schools in NY have barley a 50% graduation rate. It must be “outside forces” like those evil yuppie chicks.

    Everything isn’t racism and racism isn’t everything. Some things are quite obvious. Stay in school, don’t beef, and work hard, and you’ll succeed like anyone else. I see plenty of successful people of all colors so spread your Malcom X “The man is holding me down” garbage elsewhere.

    Also, it’s not white kids being murdered. “Ohhh! But they do drugs too!”. That’s nice. I smoked pot too whe I was a teenager. Tell me something I don’t know.

    Blaming everything but the problem at hand is why these communites are i the state they’re in in the first place.

    BTW, if North Carolia is so bad, then why are more Blacks moving here than to NY. I see more oppertunites for Blacks dow south than here, which is a good thing.

  • ….And I never lived in NC either. Been there recently thou.

    Eastern Parkway and New York. Beeotch.

  • 5.39 – the polish community in 94th precinct is generally low income, but they do value hard work, schooling and marriage. There were no murders in the 94th precinct according to the charts. They teach their kids at home, and the public schools there are good because they reflect the home life of the children who attend them. it doesn’t need the well heeled in the community to do anything. Its the familes of the kids attending the schools that need to set the scene.

  • can’t spell worth a damn can you? You are the one talking like Black communities have all the problems and none of the solutions and I am telling you you are wrong. If you want to know what life is like in Black community, put your money where yor mouth is and go live in one- talk to your neighbors, frequent their stores, eat dinner with them, go to chruch with them and listine to them when they speak about what they think their problems really are.The day you put your money where yor mouth is and go do that, instead of looking down from your supposed high point and dispensing your wisdom as it were, then you have a right to make pronouncments about communities and people you don’t know. FYI -Eastern Parkway is In New York. It’s a boulevard, New York is the city. Got that?

    I’ve done all that and I don’t dream to think I can speak for anyone in the Black community, but I know the problems here are not “your Malcom X “The man is holding me down” garbage ” there are loads of reasons why things as they are. And I’m not making excuses- I’m talking fact. BTW- that comment of yours really points up a lot of ignorance on your part, CS- your knowledge of Malcolm X is about as extensive as your spelling capabilities. For someone advocating staying in school as a fix for Black communities, it’s obvious you left a tad early yourself. But then you did tell us Life was your degree.It shows. And nice riposte by the way- nothing like resorting to name calling when your debating skills have failed.

  • anonymous 1:45am I was responding to the
    “serengetti” metaphor posted by another poster “anonymous- 8:52pm”… notice the quotes?

    The other poster’s metaphor was frigtening, but I stick to my original comment to it… there are areas of NYC that are heavily crime ridden and dangerous… fact.

  • indeed there are- I just wish that people wouldn’t go out of their way to use metaphors or code words that everyone knows or assumes refers to Black people. The root causes of high crime in certain neighborhoods are economic but some people here seem to think it’s color related. Go outside the city and those same economic problems exist in poor white neighborhoods.

  • Beeotch,

    “FYI -Eastern Parkway is In New York. It’s a boulevard, New York is the city. Got that?”

    Eastern Parkway AND New York is an intersection.

  • /\ No where do I say white people don’t have problems. As a Jew whose family got “wasted” by Nazis, I’d say whites have lots of problems. But we’re not talking about Germany. We’re talking about Brooklyn North, which is predomently Black except for us funny people with hats.

    Anyway, There are ishloads of talented, successful, wonderful Black people here and around the nation. Almost every African I’ve met has a degree and the amount of Jamaican buisnesses is astounding. So when I hear the same old garbage, I tune out.

    I saw this nabe go downhill. Now I’m seeing it go uphill. And it will take all of us up, Black, Jew, whatever, if we allow it.

    Yes, the schools are shit.

    Yes, racism is rampant.

    Yes, the working class is being crushed underfoot.

    But that doesn’t change the fact that half these kids get murdered over sneaks or “comments”. That’s what’s at issue.

    And as for the gentrification at hand, if we allowed more housing to be built, then the prices would come down and the middle class would come in as well.

    If Brooklyn North stayed all Black, then hey, I couldn’t care less. But I do want it to be successful and attract successful people.

  • And finally you reveal your true agenda. Development.

  • then you and I are on the same page and the same background. One of the things I’ve always loved about New York was the neighborhoods. It just seemed that people chose a neighborhood for their own reasons- I love Crown Hgts. North because it reminds of the Bronx neighborhood I grew up in. I moved here because an opportunity came up to rent from a friend- I hardly constitute gentry on any level. My dislike of the type of gentrification NYC is seeing is that it is often destructive- it involves displacing the older community instead of supporting, and helping to build it up. I know there are drug dealers on the corner of my street, and bad stuff happens. But I live here every day and the people I live among are for the most part as hardworking, as intelligent, as creative, as contributory as anyone else. I hate when statistics are used to define a neighborhood and all the other facts fall by the wayside.

    Do I think that means there are no problems to be resolved- hardly. Do I think people need to take more responsibility- absolutely. Do I think the City has redlined poorer communities in terms of services and money- 100%. I lived in Brooklyn Heights and Crown Heights. I have a real point of comparison. from the buses, to the trains to everything else-Brooklyn Hgts. gets more and more quickly.

    I honestly don’t believe if we allowed more housing prices would come down and the middle class come in. First because housing prices have never gone down. second- developers are out to make as much money as they can and spend as little as possible doing it. that’s good business sense- but it often translates into awful fedders buildings or poorly designed and built apartment buildings, better suited to be warehouses than homes. Third- everyone wants to build luxury housing and co-ops. taking into account how expensive it is to build anywhere in NYC, I don’t see low to middle income housing- decent housing, not cheap crap- being built. Except when developers are forced to- the way Ratner was. And there is no guarantee he will ever actually build it- so it’s still a lose-lose situation for the community.

    People forget that Bed-Stuy, CHN, and other predominantly Black communities are trendy now because a big working-middle class stayed and anchored them. And worked very hard to make them better- they are not all homeowners but people invested in their communities. Bed-Stuy especially was active. Their first House Tour was over 25 years ago- long before a gentrifyier would even know the name. Crown Heights North is another perfect example. But when people look at these communities and see crime stats, that’s all they see and property investors think they have to clear out the neighborhood to protect their investments. the drug dealers don’t suffer- their business is mobile. It’s the people who anchored the neighborhood that suffer most.

    So the question is what makes a successful neighborhood? How do you integrate the wants of gentrifyiers with the needs of the existing community and make it work for both? Without telling them since they can no longer afford their own neighborhood they should just shut up an move- because that has been said many many times on this board.

  • Thank you anon 2:42 at 11:24am! :)
    Nicely articulated and heart-felt and I agree.

  • To Anonyomus:

    Suck it, I’m for CH period.

    To Anon:

    The general gist of your post is good, but here’s where your wrong:

    “Housing Prices have never come down”

    Wrong, they’ve come crashing down during the early 70s and during the early 90s. More housing lowers demand, thus lowering prices. I know that’s not what the socialists here want you to believe, but it’s true. It doesn’t matter what you “believe”, it matters what’s tried and true economic theroy. As for fedders, as long as we’re not losing brownstones, who cares? If it gives a young, hardworking family, Black or White a place to live, then I’m all for it.

    “Bed-Stuy, CH and other Black neighborhoods are popular becuase the middle class stayed”

    Yes, some did. But don’t fool yourself. By 1970, half this area was on some form of public assistance. Middle-class nabes don’t register 80-90 slayings a preceint as was the case during the late 80s and early 90s. Poverty here is very real and very rampant.

    As for intergrating the existing community, it’s very simple:

    step 1: More housing, more Black/Jewish-owned buisnesses

    step 2: set aside protion of all developments for middle class

    step 3: get the schools up and running

    step 4: Pay the NYPD it’s fair share

    step 5: Look past skin color and realize we’re all one community :)

    (just a side note, for all the “Keep Bed-Stuy Black” crowd, how do you feel about the “Keep Bensonhurst Italian” crowd?)

  • I”m sure each of us can find the facts and stats to back up both of our arguments, but I am also certain that mine is based on far more experience than yours. Stats are tracked for crime-but there are few analyses that give a full picture of any community.

    “People forget that Bed-Stuy, CHN, and other predominantly Black communities are trendy now because a big working-middle class stayed and anchored them. And worked very hard to make them better” is what I said- and that is a different statement from the words you are trying to put in my mouth- or my pen as it were. No where did i say proverty wasn’t rampant or the neighborhood was without serious problems. But no assessment of Bed-Stuy or other Black neighborhoods is worth much unless you consider all the factors, and not reduce them to a simplistic viewpoint. Which is what you’re doing.

    As far as fedders buildings- I don’t know about you, but when a developer puts one up in a poor neighborhood, it just says they don’t give a crap about it or the people who will live there. they just want their money. It wouldn’t even be a problem except that crap attitude translates into crap construction and design that the new owner is stuck with. I have a friend who is a contractor and she has done numerous construction/repair jobs in new fedders housing.For people who have worked hard to be able to buy a home or a condo, they deserve better than that.

  • /\I don’t look at it in a “I don’t give a shit” way. I’m just looking at the big picture.

    Yes, Fedders are ugly. But everyone on here goes on and on about keeping Middle-class folks here (which I support), and fedders housing is affordable housing. I mean, I’m not advocating building slums, but if a growing middle/working class family can come here and live the American dream, then by all means we should support that. When you see the good and bad in life, you realize what’s importaint.

    As for the quote, sorry for that. I did think that you seemed unaware of just how bad some things were in the day. Not trying to pass judgement……

    Also, don’t sit here and try to compare “experience”. I was here since 1947 and saw everything. From the blackout to the riots. Yes, I do recognize the wonderful citizens that reside here, and they are quite numerous, a majority even. I’ve talked to them, played with them (as a kid). gone out with them and shopped at their stores. I would miss that. But there are also lots of thugs/sloths/criminals and junkies. Ultamitely, there’s a reason the moniker “BED STUY DO OR DIE” came into existance. Don’t pretend like this area was some Spike Lee-esque Black suburb. It would be nice if it became that, but that isn’t real now or was real back then.

  • Common sense- that’s the last thing I would pretend. But I’ve lived within Black communities, I have Black family, Black friends- you have a different perspective from here. And I don’t mean to imply I am some sort of “special insider”- I’m not. I just live in a community I love, and I want the picture to be whole, not one-sided. So many good things go on here, and there are so many good people who have fought an uphill battle for these neighborhoods but they are overlooked or forgotten. They were self-gentrifyers, long before the real estate market discovered how fabulous the housing stock was. But no one ever gets to hear about them. I don’t think it’s right or fair to the community, especially when everytime someone (myself e.g.) tries to bring up all the good things, people immediately assume that we are trying to sugarcoat the situation or we are lying, or we are ostriches. Believe me, I am not.

    But people make a mistake when they assume that the people in Bed-Stuy or Crown Heights or Clinton Hill or PPG have not done anything to save their own neighborhoods or that they have been ineffective.

    I’ve seen plenty of good and bad in life. Who hasn’t? I agree that it’s great to build housing to keep the middle class here- it’s important to all of us that they not be driven out. It’s important for young families to be given a chance to own in their own neighborhoods – no doubt about it. But how do you teach or expect people to care about their property when they’ve spent their money on “affordable” junk and they have to spend even more money and time repairing what was just built? then it becomes unaffordable and unliveable.

    There aren’t any easy answers, but there could be better questions.

  • /\ I get your point. And again, I know that 90% reisdents of Central Brooklyn are wonderful people. I’ll I ask is people keep it real about what this nabe is and where it’s been.

    Why do people think rich people in the hood are so bad? I mean, it means more wonderful stores, money for cops/schools, Shit…they might even try putting some better railcars on the A train. :)

    I would like Central Brooklyn to be both rich and middle-class, and it can if we play our cards right.

  • I’m waiting for the dining car- we can get that, right? :-)

  • Well, the 3/4 is no Orient express :)