An Open Question: Finishing a Wood Floor

Just asking, but shouldn't you have laid that floor before you put those walls up? Maybe the walls were never down. I don't know.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 10:32 AM

I have generally used satin finish poly with good results. It is not shiny and gives a nice warm look.

BTW, I am about to attack a similar project. I am thinking about removing the existing floor boards, putting sound insulation in the floor, laying new sub-floor and then reinstalling the original flooring on top.

I am wondering if the salvaged floor you were installing was originally from your house? Mine has a lot of gaps between the boards and I am hoping by reinstalling, I can tighten up the boards.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 10:33 AM

the answer to first question is yes, we should have, but timing doesn't always work out in our favor. the nook you see in the picture we didn't do at the time - when we put down the boards we didn't think we had enough left over for this area. we were going to do something different. in the meantime, we got to putting up walls.

as to the 10:33's question, we salvaged the boards from a friend's house, and when we pried them up we lost a lot of useable boards in the process. probably about 1/3 of the orignal flooring was lost in the process. be aware that, at least for us, it was not possible to take up the old boards without damaging some in the process.

satin finish water-based or oil-based poly?

- Peter

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 10:38 AM

Would not recommend water based poly particularly for a kitchen. It's no more difficult to apply. Go with the oil based if you can deal with the fumes.

Also even if you want a satin top coat, always use high gloss for the lower coats which give you more solids in the finish.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 10:40 AM

if I put down a high gloss layer of poly under a satin or matte top layer of poly, what will the final result look like? is the wood going to look very plastic?

- Peter

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 10:48 AM

no,you will only see the finish of the top coat. Another advantage of using high gloss for the lower coat is that over time (years) you may see a shiny spot develop in a high traffic area. That's a good indication that it's time to screen the floor and re apply the top coat. Saves you the trouble/mess of re-sanding.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 10:54 AM

Matte finish lasts about half as long, if that, as glossy. We like the matte look as well but when we did one floor matte and one floor glossy, the wearability difference is significant. I've read about a technique where you put down glossy, but then use a dull or french? wax on top to matte things out. You've got to deal with periodic waxing but it looks great and lasts longer. And waterbased polyurethane plain ol' sucks in my opinion.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 10:54 AM

Remember it's a kitchen. Water is the enemy of wood so what ever you do make sure it will stand up to wear especially within the desgn triangle sink/ stove/ fridge. The more gloss the stronger the finish. We have wood floors (satin finish)in our kitchen and after eight years they are ready for refinishing. It's old 70 year old oak so every scratch in the finish is an oportunity for water to get in and turn the wood black (tanins?). Remember you will need to mop at least once a week or more.

As for refinishing, make sure you have enough paper of all grit types on hand so you dont run out. Take the extras back.

Using a belt type sander? Check for any standing proud nails before!! It will tear the paper in a second. Good time to fill any knots/nail holes as well.

Make sure you vacume extremely well before poly. Use a tac cloth. Change your clothes before you poly.

Also if you use water based poly make sure you stir it very well with out making air bubbles. I apply water based with squeegee. Remeber just because it's water based doesn't mean that it's not dangerous. When you sand between coats wear a respirator. Silica!

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 11:01 AM

I just got my floors done using the Bona water based poly and they came out BEAUTIFUL!!!!! You don't get the golden tone of the regular (more toxic) poly. However, the one downside to using this stuff is that the layer is on the thin side so your floors can be dented much easier!
Good luck!

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 11:09 AM

I hope you are leaving a small gap between the flooring and the finished walls for expansion as the seasons change.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 11:10 AM

Water-based Varathane brand. Gloss-matte is totally a personal pref, although as above poster says gloss tends to give a harder finish. (Above posters point on stirring w/ water-based products is *key*; also obv sand btwn coats.)

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 11:10 AM

we will be using a belt sander, so thanks for the nails tip (no pun).

it'a starting to sound like we want to do one coat of gloss poly followed by one coat of satin.

as for putting down finish, books show a squeegee as you mentioned, but you can also use a cloth? what is the difference?

it's great to get tips here from people with experience. please keep 'em coming. either regarding the sanding or the finishing.

- Peter

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 11:11 AM

I second the vote for satin finish. And that's great advice about starting with glossy and finishing with satin-- thanks.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 11:18 AM

I just did a small room in my house myself and used a water-based satin polyurethane. I like look of the oil based poly much better although the fumes from the oil based are really bad. The other thing is that I have an oak floor in my kitchen. I would not suggest a water based poly in the kitchen. I had to have my kitchen floor redone after about 7 years because of the wear caused by my stools around the island. I use rugs by the sink, stove and fridge to cut down on wear. I had them professionally done and I noticed that they sanded first with a rough paper, then a mid grade paper and then a fine paper. I was told that it would make a difference when the poly was put down. After the first coat of poly dried they sanded again. It was getting on my nerves and taking entirely too long but by the time the finish coat went down, I was extremely impressed. I would say that you should take the time to sand with the different grit papers and then sand again after the first coat dries. It will be worth it in the end.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 11:27 AM

well, I don't need a pony, but a cool mill would sure be nice.

we are full-on sanding, the boards are really roughed up, not to mention somewhat uneven on their top faces.

I bet we can get away with oil since this is on the bottom floor and currently we are living on the top floor - in terms of fumes' reach.

Brenda, don't you need to refinish more often with tung-oil?

- Peter

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 11:51 AM

we just had our original pine subfloors redone. we told our floor guy that we did not want a dark, glossy or thick finish. we would rather deal with more maintenance than a glossy look. that being said, he applied 3 coats of oil based poly, sanding after each coat. the last coat was a matte (satin) oil poly. the result was awful. it looked very thick and made the wood look very dark. he used the same method on our bottom floor, which is a grade b oak. same result, looked very thick and not matte as we hoped. thankfully, he came back and redid all of the floors with 3 coats of water based poly, last coat matte (satin) poly. the old pine floors came out a couple shades lighter and has a beautiful matte finish. ditto for the oak floor. you can really see the grain and beauty of the floor with the water based poly. our floor guy used glossy water based poly for the first two coats. he explained that he would sand after each coat so you would not see the gloss. i would sample some unused floor boards using both kinds of finishes oil and water based. i hope this helps. good luck!

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 12:09 PM

one more thing, save the dust from sanding to mix with poly to fill cracks and holes. you can get a good color match. 11:01 really seems to know what he's talking about. all of his points are right on. i've also heard from several people not to apply poly when it is raining or humid outside. i think it also causes bubbles.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 12:23 PM

Looks good! My vote goes for a matte or satin finish w/ an oil-based product. Gloss, even semi-gloss almost always looks inferior to me.

One thing you might consider is letting pros take over from here on out. Sanding floors is extremely difficult to master - there's a high probability that you'll end up wishing you could have practiced on someone else's floors first!

Not to discourage you either. But it's so hard to do well, and the dust mess it creates is insane. (Also be sure to remove ALL of the dust daily to the outdoors. That stuff can and sometimes does ignite on it's own!)

Also, when I had the floors in my house done, I thought the fumes were going to kill me when I visited the next day. Literally. We stayed out for three or four days afterwards and ventilated the space, and it was still really intense for a while. Oil-based poly is nasty stuff to be breathing in so you might get a hotel or stay with friends...

Your house is beautiful! Congratulations...

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 12:26 PM

We used tung oil as well in our bedroom and are really happy with the results. The floor looks very natural, not glossy at all, and has worn well since we did it 2 years ago. We bought pure tung oil which you can buy on the internet and mixed it with mineral spirits which helps it to really soak into the wood. Like Brenda said, you have to give the wood several coats until it can't take any more i.e. it does not get soaked in but just sits on top. Yes you need to refinish more ofter with tung oil but in a low traffic area like bedroom it is great. It does have a funny smell for several months. Not a bad smell, but not one that I would want around forever. In a high traffic area I would guess you would have to give it a new coat every couple of years, but just a quick touch up coat. Plus if you get any scratches in the wood just apply a little tung oil and it vanishes.

We used water based satin poly in our living room. I was afraid I would have to redo in a few years but it has held up amazingly well so far. Even with lots of chairs skidding around on the floors. We did do at least 3 coats, perhaps four or five (its all a blur now) but remember that water based poly can dry in a few hours on a warm day so you can easily do all four coats in one day. With oil based you have to wait at least a day between each coat. Oil based will also change the color of the wood more. Not a bad thing but worth doing a test.

Good luck,
Jon

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 12:30 PM

Please don't use tung oil. That's for furniture or woodwork - not flooring.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 12:31 PM

When sanding with a belt sander you will need to use the edger disc sander. Do not speed through this part of the job even though it is back breaking work. Whn you go through each grit change make sure you follow through with the edger. Be carful not to burn in any spirals by trying to bite off more than you can chew. I have used water lux tung oil before on floors. Veery nice stuff, very expensive. It is an oil fortified tung oil not pure tung oil,

If you go with the oil based you might want to put down a very thin coat of thinned down poly that soakes into the wood< sometimes called a sanding sealer. This penetrates the surface and when it dries, lets you sand the next day with a fine grit paper to really finish the wood nicely, especially if your pine is soft or uneven. You just want to sand enough to knock down any wood slivers dust ect. Remember multiple thin coats, with proper drying time between is the way to go. You can't rush it. Will you have access to an orbital floor sander? That's the way to go between coats. Rent one dont try and use the belt sander, especially if you are not experienced. Waterbased use a sponge applicator...poly you can use a lambskin one. With the lambskin be sure to run some masking tape over the surface a few times to remove the loose hairs before you start. XXXOOO

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 12:37 PM

12:31, Do some research about pure tung oil on the internet and you will see that you are wrong.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 12:40 PM

we installed salveged wood floor in our place. it was an old oak stage from a theater and there had been some water damage in the building which made some of the wood look blackened on its face. we hired a company to sand and surface with oil based poly. it was fantastic and i would say well worth it. the sanding was perfect and the wood looked brand new afterward. also the gloss poly surface is super durable and looks fantastic. i would definately recommend that over sanding it yourself with a belt sander, especially when the wood is reclaimed. the tongue oil does sound interesting though!

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 1:29 PM

OK, I apologize in advance for yelling: DO NOT USE MATTE POLY!

We did the first time around in the Gates Reno (I don't think I've gotten around yet to blogging about the floor saga, it's too painful). It looked great when it was first finished, and we were happy.

Then it developed these bizarre spots that looked as though someone had poured bleach on them. The theory was that it was an old/bad batch of matte poly. So they had to be re-done. The bleached parts were sanded, a few bad parts were replaced with new floorboards, everything else was buffed, and satin poly was laid. It looked great.

Then a couple months later, the satin poly started bubbling in the cracks and peeling off. The bad poly was still in the cracks, and was ruining what was put on top! So the entire thing - two whole floors - had to be sanded and done again, for a third time.

We were living on those two floors the whole time, and had to move absolutely everything out each time.

That was a few months ago. So far so good. But I'll never mess with matte again. It's just not used enough to guarantee that it hasn't been sitting in a warehouse for years going bad, and just waiting to ruin someone's floor.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 2:24 PM

I have pretty good idea where those bleach looking spots came from. Matte is not the natural color of poly. They add a little bit of white pigment to the poly which gives it a slightly cloudy look which translates to matte finish. If the can of matte poly is not stirred well then you will end up with these bleached looking spots, which is just a high concentration of white pigment. This happens when you get to the bottom of a can that has not been stirred well. Your problem was not bad poly, but bad contractor.

Jon

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 2:41 PM

We didn't use tung oil on our floors (oil-based poly instead) but there's many a time I've regretted that decision. There's so much wear and tear in a kitchen that you can't avoid scratching and otherwise damaging a poly finish. As others have pointed out, a tung oil finish can be touched up. That's not to say, however, that there are no VOCs in tung oil. Almost all of them contain at least a small amount of petroleum-based varnish in order to allow them to dry quickly (or moderately quickly). But they are less toxic than oli-based poly for sure. Definitely an option to give serious consideration to. Probably requires some online research to find the best products/methods.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 2:59 PM

so I went to check out the Waterlox website. looks like possibly the best of all worlds? Tung oil, reinforced with resins, and you can get a satin finish. Then you have the touch-up advantages of tung oil down the line.

Can anyone else out there second this product?

- Peter

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 3:09 PM

I always trust This Old House and they recommend either water-based or oil poly...

Also Peter, read through everything here - you might not have to sand, perhaps just screen...

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,203303,00.html

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 3:37 PM

Having done many floors (as an amatuer), you have most of the advice I'd recommend.

I would rent/borrow a profeessional grade belt floor-sander and edger. (I could not tell if you are using this or a hand belt sander.) A hand belt-sander would take a long time and you would not get a low enough grit to take the old poly off.

While sanding, if the old coating starts to gumm up your paper, stop and change to a heavier grit. You probably want to start with a 16 or 32 grit paper. As advised. Buy more paper than you need, return the rest. I do not reccomend the larger vibrating type sander. (Like a large heavy palm sander) They take a lot of time and work, and create lots of dust. I used one my first time because they are less prone to error, and wish I had not.

Keep the sander moving before and after you start the motor -- to avoid creating dips.

I have had best experince with oil based poly. And I'd use 3 coats, maybe 4 in the kitchen.

VACUUM. VACUUM. VACUUM. before you start to poly, then VACUUM. again. Dust is the enemy of a nice finish.

If you let the poly dry just enough, you can then apply the next coat without having to screen the floor. If you wait till it's fully dry, you must screen it. This should be noted on the can's instructions.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 3:56 PM

Peter, Maybe this goes without saying, but please do yourself a favor and try out different finishes on one plank (blue tape to separate each sample). You'll be shocked at the differences: each finish changes the color and look of the wood, even the FEEL of the wood. Personally, I treasure the texture of wood, and poly but ESPECIALLY OIL erases the texture -- because it sits on the SURFACE of the wood, and doesn't penetrate.

We installed three floors of northern white cedar (yeah, sounds weird, it's a fetish of mine), which is similar to pine in its softness, though much lighter in color. The Bona Kemi reacted badly -- turned it yellow. The Varathane Poly was much more natural, and left a practically "Unfinished" look -- which is what I used on one floor.

However, on the main floor I am now considering doing the tung oil, on recomendation from a flooring finisher, because I'd just discovered the gorgeousness of Linseed on my staircase (we stripped it and I hated every varnish brand out there after doing samples, until I found raw linseed -- Oh My God!!! plus, you apply it yourself. Natural, DIY, and Gorgeous. What more can you ask for?)

Anyway, I'm gonna try this Tung Oil stuff tomorrow on one plank and see how I like it. I'll let you know what effect it has on the cedar.

If you want some Varathane (Poly) or Bona Kemi Traffic (poly), just to sample, I have some left over. Email me izmonk@gmail.com

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 4:46 PM

thanks, curious about the tung myself. just checked in on pricing of Waterlox, and that stuff is expensive at over $100 bucks per gallon. I think I will try the sample exercise on some scraps of the wood.

- Peter

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 5:14 PM

I submitted this already but did not go through the first time. I would look at realmilkpaint.com who offer pure tung oil. It is the same price for a gallon of pure tung oil and a gallon of waterlox which is basically tung oil and mineral spirits and some resins to perhaps justify the price. Pure tung oil gets mixed with mineral spirits with a 1:3 ratio so it is a whole lot cheaper than waterlox and has worked well for me. In my experience pure tung oil mixed with mineral spirits soaks right into the wood and after a few applications the floor should be completely waterproof. The finish is satin unless you put too much on, at which point it can get a little glossy after you buff. Anyway read the website at realmilkpaint.com about pure tung oil. I think you will be convinced. And you can just by a small 8 oz bottle for $7 to try it out.

Posted by: guest at November 16, 2007 5:43 PM

Can I borrow Bobby Peru's tile saw next? He sounds like the kind of friend every renovator needs. Yay for Bobby Peru!

I still want his tile saw.

Posted by: guest at November 18, 2007 6:12 PM

Updater: G and I decided to go for the Waterlox tung-oil stuff after I found a good price online. Hint - check out Amazon.com.

B Peru: Nice work on scoring that screen name!

Posted by: guest at November 18, 2007 10:48 PM

I just came across this forum and noticed mention of Waterlox. I have previously used Waterlox on about 1200 sq.ft. of heart pine and am currently finishing approx. 2500 sq.ft. in the remainder of the house. I love the product. I used two coats of their sealer/finish and then two coats of original satin. I have yet to find any faults with Waterlox. It's extremely easy to apply and looks beautiful.

Posted by: guest at November 30, 2007 11:45 PM

I am having my 1910 oak floors refinished. The finish now is poly., and I've read that wax looks better. What is the right way to wax floors and care for them. thanks Janet

Posted by: guest at March 6, 2008 9:38 AM

Could anyone please tell me how to change or apply satin or matte finish on top of semi-gloss finish? I just had my floor done with semi-gloss finish and the contractor told me that the semi-gloss protects wood more but not shine at all. I had them put it on and it's really shiny and I hate it. The contractor could add one more coat satin on it but we have to pay them 1k for it. I think it's rip off. Could anybody tell me how to apply the satin finish by myself? It that easy to do? Thanks,

Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 7:17 PM