Green Roof Reno
Oh . . . the Possibilities! »
January 13, 2008
Going Green
An Introduction
Hello! We are Mr. and Mrs. Green Roof looking forward to bringing you the play by play from our foray into the world of green roof design and construction. We recently bought a one bedroom apartment with roof rights in a four story, eight family co-op building in Park Slope. The roof has tremendous potential to be an outdoor extension of our interior living space while at the same time doing something positive for the environment, so we thought we’d share the process of transforming it with you.
Our Project
To research, design and implement a 750 sq ft green roof in Park Slope, Brooklyn. Because of the panoramic views--which include the Manhattan skyline and glimpses of the harbor and passing ships, New Jersey, and the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge--this space would especially benefit from a deck and some greenery. We see this as an opportunity to not only increase our quality of life but also bring value to our home. The goal is to create a wooden deck with potted plants, comfortable furniture and some kind of shade structure like a wooden trellis on about one-third of the roof. The remaining two-thirds would be covered with an ecological or extensive green roof.
Although the roof is technically shared (split in half between us and our fourth floor neighbors) and the staircase is shared by the interior hallway of the co-op, when you get up the roof itself, it feels fairly empty and quiet and really peaceful. Disconnected from the street by the height of building and a five-foot high parapet (a low wall at the edge of a house-top) on street side, you can hear the rustling of the leaves on nearby trees and the unusually strong winds howling in your ears.
Green Roof
Typically there are two types of green roof systems, extensive and intensive. An extensive green roof has low, desert-like plantings designed to provide maximum green coverage while requiring only two to four inches of soil. Intensive green roof systems are more of a typical roof garden with trees and other large plantings which require several feet of soil depth and a steel frame.
We think implementing an extensive green roof is a cost-effective and ecologically sensitive way to bring mass greenery to our roof. We hope that by using plantings like sedum and using lightweight soil we will be able to have close to 500 sq ft of green space on the roof. We hope to get the okays from our co-op board and a structural engineer to install the green roof system directly on top of the existing roofing membrane. Throughout the process we’ll be researching different products and books and sharing our reviews.
Deck
A deck will provide us with a great outdoor hang-out, dining and work space. We hope to make it simple and beautiful and do most of the work ourselves.
Because the roof has a parapet on three sides (two ft high on the north and south sides, and five and a half feet high on the east side), the view, right now, is restricted while seated. Therefore we plan to raise the elevation of the deck two feet above the current roof, increasing views, and meeting many of our major aesthetic goals for the project.
Why We’re Documenting
We are really passionate about doing this. With all the constant green this and green that, in a world where green has become a marketable commodity; we hope that people see our project and want to do their own roof garden. Brooklyn is a pretty dynamic place and we wouldn’t be surprised if it became a leader in realizing green neighborhoods and helping New York to become an eco-city. Bloomberg supports this vision and we definitely recommend checking out his PLANYC report on sustainability. In any case, we are excited and anxious about the possibilities and pitfalls. We’ll do our best to post nice photos and a detailed look at the process. Happy reading!
Mr. and Mrs. Green Roof
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Comments
Wow - sounds like it will be a beautiful space when finished. Good luck.
PS: Not sure if its just me but I can't see any of your photos.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at January 14, 2008 8:45 AM
I saw the pics fine....looking forward to seeing the progress. I just had a parlour deck built by Susan at Sketch and Hammer and it was nice working with her....they do roof decks too...I found them through ths site... www.sketchandhammer.com
Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:28 AM
boring !
Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:18 PM
(re: above comment)
are you jealous you don't have a roof to green? in case you haven't noticed, going green is anything but boring. . .
i think it's a fantastic project-- looking forward to reading about the progress.
Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:27 PM
Can I come to the unveiling party?
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 3:18 PM
I think its a great idea. Something that I might be interested in doing at my park slope brownstone. I am sure that my tenants would be very happy and I will flow up this project with great interest.
Posted by: arial at January 15, 2008 3:25 PM
Those views are AMAZING!!! Would you mind sharing the streets your place is on?
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 3:27 PM
Oh, this sounds great! My limited experience with planting on a Brooklyn rooftop made me realize the importance of 3 things (1) shade for the people area, and possibly partial-day shade for some of the plantings, depending on the plants; (2) irrigation - again, how much depends on the plantings; and (3) ease of access - for the middle-aged and older, it gets harder and harder to climb those straight-up ladders - so it is good you have stairs.
I'd love to do something like this, but my experience with a small coop life means I'd never risk buying a coop if I hoped to do something like this - they can be really ornery. I sure hope for you that your coop board is a friendly, amenable and reasonable one!
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 3:37 PM
Don't know if you're new to the area, but I can suggest a few local resources. Shannons is the best nursery for bulk items you'll need like 2 cu ft bags of pearlite and vermiculite. Call ahead to see if it's in. They'll order that for you too. Home Depot/lowes have peat and soil, but only tiny bags of other stuff. You want to minimize the soil to minimize the weight up there.
Also check out the brooklyn botanic gardens courses. I took their 'your garden tutorial' (named something like that) when starting my roof garden. The instructors are Jim and Joan. They limit the class to about 5-8 people. It runs 6 classes for 2 or 3 hours each session. So you get a lot of one-on-one time with 2 different professional garden designers giving you feedback and resources on how to create your space. It cost a few hundred but is much cheaper than hiring someone for that much time. They help you through the process from hardscape to specific plants.
My roof garden is invaluable to me. You will love yours too. Good luck.
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 3:39 PM
Congrats--can't wait to watch unfold, and I'd love to do the same on my roof. One question: Could you also add an extra room up top (do you have the FAR and would landmarks permit?) Would be nice to stick a groovy master suite up there in addition to green roof. I'm gonna guess your landmark status would make it impossible, huh?
In any case, rock on and thanks for sharing.
Posted by: Rehab at January 15, 2008 3:43 PM
11th between 5th and 6th ain't landmark, but I'd love to see the look on the coop boards faces when adding a master suite to thier roof. Also, you don't really want to be settling down for the night in your master suite when someone in the coop decides to have a rooftop party outside your window. woo hoo!
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 4:25 PM
4:25 these people have the roof rights so others in the coop can't use it for their parties. However, having roof rights doesn't give you right to build. Many coops are ok with doing so once you buy more shares and increase your maintenance to cover the increased space. It involves a lot for the coop -engineer, redoing the insurance, make sure the underlying mortgage lender is ok with it, etc. - but, it can bring in a chunk of money for the building.
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 4:54 PM
4:54 - Read again "Although the roof is technically shared (split in half between us and our fourth floor neighbors) ..."
And I agree, offered enough money, a coop might approve it. But if they are happy with their current financials, they may not want the hassle of months of major construction, workmen smoking in the building, debris in the front and back, etc...
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 5:31 PM
The only people who could have a party next to your master suite would be the other unit owner who owns the roof rights on the opposite side of the building. Non-issue.
If it's not landmarked, then the only issue is whether the board would permit an addition (and this is not a very large addition). While construction is always unpleasant, the board would have a definite incentive to permit this, obviously, as it would increase this owner's share of the building and resulting common charges, decreasing everybody else's. (Right?) I have a friend in a building exactly like this in Prospect Heights who has already built the deck (on steel beams, really high quality), and plans to add the master suite shortly. It would make this unit enormously more valuable.
Posted by: Rehab at January 15, 2008 6:05 PM
Love the idea of a green roof. Check out GreenroofsNYC, they're a very helpful resource. We spent several years working on our roof garden and learned some helpful lessons. The extensive green roof is relatively easy. A bunch of succulents in lightweight soil requires only minimal upkeep. However when you talk about a roof deck things rapidly become more complicated. First the sq footage is limited by Fire code to 20% of roof surface. Also, the sun is brutal on exposed materials -- wood decks really only last a few years or so and will require yearly maintenance/repair after the first few years. Shade structures are nice, but creating a shade structure that gives adequate shade means building a relatively large structure, and the large structure acts as a potential sail. Remember that on a roof in Park Slope we are on top of the slope and the winds can reach 40-60 miles per hour. In the summer thunder storms regularly blow through and can easily turn a shade structure into kindling. It's no fun watching the sky darken and realizing that you have open umbrellas or loose furniture which may end up in the windshield of a neighbors car. My two cents, keep the built wood structures to a bare minimum.
We ended up skipping the "deck" and simply build a decorative fence around rubber playground pads placed on the roof surface. The pads (from Carlisle Tire and Rubber Co) are recycled so they're "green" and they can be laid out in an afternoon. They drain, are easily moved for roof repair, and last far longer with no maintenance.
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 6:18 PM
I wish I had the strength to do this...I guess the easiest would be to order those plastic mesh flats predone with potting medium an sedums...I guess they wouldn't be that hard to install...this is what is called an "extensive" system.
I really would love to do an "intensive" installation but am not sure it would be such a good idea for our 150+ yr old house. We have a friend in Manhattan who really DID up her roof ages ago (probably well before some of the newer waterproofing membranes were either available or, at least, being used by roofers who did this kind of work).
She had tons of problems with water infiltration. Of course, she had some major planting areas set up...deep containers for roses and small trees. This is probably fine on a steel girder building but on her 1800's townhouse, it wasn't ideal. Pretty! But probably not ideal...
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 7:06 PM
One note to what a commenter posted above on pearlite and vermiculite.
BE VERY CAREFUL with these materials. Wear a mask when handling them dry.
You can find potting mixes that are ultra light made for roof installtions. Go online.
Regarding the wind:
Yes, be very careful. Don't leave furniture and objects that can blow around easily up there all the time...secure whatever you can down.
Even clay pots with plants end up drying to a crisp, falling over and then rolling around on roofs.
A little secured wind turbine would be sweet if it powered "garden" lighting when you're done.
A deck does not have to be planking (either wood or plastic). There are materials that are like round pebbles (look like baked, expanded clay) that can be set down in a layer over a riser/leveling system. Get the lightest ones possible. Might be a nice alternative to that HOT-in-the-sun hard surfacing with a tactile element you wouldn't have otherwise.
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 7:15 PM
Building a master bedroom is a wonderful idea. But the costs are substantial, figure on $1,000/sq ft. You need steel for the roof and you need to build a new staircase for direct access. And don't forget that you will lose the floor space where the stairs land in your apartment. Having said that, if you have the cash, build every square foot you can! You'll turn an apartment into a penthouse with direct roof access. That's a very nice lifestyle.
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 8:31 PM
Sorry, I posted the GreenroofNYC comment above. I checked back and it's not the site I thought it was. I'll have to check my old notes and see if I can find the correct link.
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 8:39 PM
Are you planning on building your deck/green roof on your neighbors half of the roof? How is that ok? Seems you'll need to try and buy their shares.
Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 9:36 PM
Its a nice idea to make an area pretty with green stuff. But I wouldn't waste my time or money. the market is going down. the view is nice from the top, but not in the surrounding area. are you the people that are flipping the other brownstone blogged about?
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 12:47 AM
You aren't the first to do green tops in the city. you must be new here...they are all over manhattan and every other borough...big deal..no one is jealous of you...but I agree you must be bored and looking for something to do.
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 12:53 AM
Whoa, stoner commenters above, seriously, you'll have more fun on your regular porn sites. Git.
Posted by: Rehab at January 16, 2008 1:45 AM
can you walk on the green roof part or will footsteps kill the plants?
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 2:12 AM
I'm confused? Are you building/installing this for your exclusive personal use with your own funds and will pay for upkeep?
And, as a co-op board member, the words that strike fear in my heart are, "we hope to .. do most of the work ourselves". Unless this is your profession, I'd need to see more and in fact in our building only licensed and insured professionals are allowed to do things so smaller than this kind of thing.
Also, lots of green roofs in Red Hook. A whole community of people who did this 3 or 4 years ago...
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 11:02 AM
If you haven't already checked it out, a good resource on green roofs is Sustainable South Bronx's Green Roof Project.
http://www.ssbx.org/greenroofs.html
Posted by: guest at January 16, 2008 2:42 PM
I'm excited at the conversation so far and definitely plan on addressing many of these questions and ideas as we move along in the process. I will though speak to a couple of things that really caught my attention.
I loved the comments about the wind. The wind howls over the ridge in this area. I've been up there and felt like I was going to blow away. Whatever we design as a shade structure will definitely need to take this major environmental factor into account. I'll also be looking into small wind-turbines . . .
Green Roofs can be walked on. Gently. They are kind of like Japanese Gardens in that you can walk on the moss but when you're next to it you know you really shouldn't. Actually though, a little bit of walking can help propagate certain sedums, as each individual "leaf" can become its own new plant. Oh, and green roofs don't need irrigation (except perhaps right at the seeding phase).
I believe that Ipe, a Brazilian hardwood, is rated non-combustible and therefore can be used on the entire roof if so desired. And I thought that 33% of your entire roof surface could be a wood deck? Can anyone confirm? Ipe, though completely amazing as a deck material is actually from a rainforest tree and therefore not at all sustainable. It is gorgeous and so smooth and not splintery. In this case, what is right and what is beautiful is not one in the same.
In regards to the co-op, we are putting together a package and will be talking with our board very soon. We will be presenting this project for what it is, a benefit to the long term health of the building. But more on that later . . .
And the Master Suite? I wish . . . But definitely a no-go.
Posted by: Green Roof Guy at January 17, 2008 10:21 AM
oy. "Ipe" + "green roof" do not go together.
Just FYI, you may want to include an insurance quote in that package if you're not paying for it. Our small 4-unit building's insurance went thru the roof (so to speak) when we put in a roof deck.
Posted by: guest at January 18, 2008 10:26 AM
I think your project sounds great. Actually, I have a very similar project in mind. As you, I own a top floor apartment of a brownstone with roof rights. I will definitely put in a deck. But I am also investigating the possibility of building an extension and adding a roof garden. I hope to hear about your progress soon to get ideas.
Posted by: guest at January 18, 2008 12:14 PM
Your project sounds fascinating -- good for you, good for your building, and good for the environment. Good luck with the long and arduous process of navigating the city bureaucracy -- hang in there, it will be worth it.
Green Mama
Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 6:24 PM
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